M-Ticket activated but not used.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some advice after an uncomfortable experience at the barriers at Forster Square station yesterday evening in which I was accused of abusing my ticket.

I was travelling from Shipley to Bradford at around 12:30 and bought an off-peak day return £2.80 e ticket from the Northern app to get past the revenue protection officers at the station.

The ticket was activated and I waited on platform five for the train to Forster Square.

There was a problem with the overhead lines and the train was cancelled and after waiting the best part of forty minutes with no joy I decided to walk home.

I live between Shipley and Bradford on the 614/613 bus route if anyone knows the area.

In the evening I decided that having wasted £2.80 on the off peak tickets that I would get the train from Bradford to Shipley and have walk to and back from Bingley on the canal before catching the train back into Bradford from Shipley.

On arriving into Bradford at just after 10pm, my Shipley to Bradford ticket which was admittedly activated earlier in the day to access the platform at Shipley but not used as there was a problem with the trains wouldn't let me through the barrier as it said seek assistance.

When the gate line staff came over I explained everything above and they scanned the ticket on their phone app and said this ticket was activated at 12:32 why are you using it now.

Despite me calmly but increasing frustratingly telling them the same story over and over again, they didn't believe or couldn't comprehend what I was telling them.

After making my point for the fourth time of why I didn't get on the train at 12:30 from Shipley to Bradford, the senior person in charge of the gate line staff gave me a warning not to activate my e-tickets unless actually on the train and opened the barriers for me.

Could anyone with more knowledge than me about e-tickets explain to me why you shouldn't activate your ticket unless you're on the train? How does that even work? I had to activate it because the Northern revenue staff wanted to see it in Shipley.

I think I'll stick to paper tickets from now on.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

If you had to activate it it was an M-ticket not an E-ticket. These are indeed best avoided.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If you had to activate it it was an M-ticket not an E-ticket. These are indeed best avoided.

Ah, cheers, yes it had to be activated and for the stress it caused I'll be using paper tickets from now on.

I can see why on activation they would assume it has been used but obviously incidents like yesterday when there is a disruption to services don't always mean that you can use it.

SteveM70 · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
the senior person in charge of the gate line staff gave me a warning not to activate my e-tickets unless actually on the train and opened the barriers for me.

Could anyone with more knowledge than me about e-tickets explain to me why you shouldn't activate your ticket unless you're on the train? How does that even work? I had to activate it because the Northern revenue staff wanted to see it in Shipley.

Another example of someone from Northern making it up as they go along. It’s a perfectly plausible scenario that the passenger’s plans are changed after they’ve activated the ticket in order to access the platform.

rs101 · 11 Aug 2020

Saying that you shouldn't activate it until you're on the train is a direct contradiction to Northern's own website - https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/northern-app/1568-what-is-an-m-ticket
" An M Ticket is an electronic ticket sent to and stored on your smartphone, and only available if you have the Northern app (or other some other train company apps) on your phone. Any tickets purchased will be stored in the Ticket Wallet in the app and must be activated before getting on the train. "

WesternLancer · 11 Aug 2020

Quite a seriously poor attitude from various staff there I'd say.

Ref activation on the train - that would surely be a potential 'fare dodgers get out' as if you thought you could get away with not activating it you might then be tempted to obtain a refund at the end of the journey if no checks / barriers in place.

How does this work with the rights you have as a passenger to have an 'instant refund' from point of purchase if the train you wish to catch is delayed / cancelled? You would have been entitled to this earlier in the day when you gave up on the journey (not that you should have necessarily done that if you thought 'I'll use this later on'). Is that easy to obtain with these sorts of tickets?

I too would have stuck to paper tickets, they would not have asked you anything had you turned up at 10pm with a ticket bought at lunch time would they.

ainsworth74 · 11 Aug 2020

This is why I don't use the Northern app when buying tickets on the train. They still use the catastrophically flawed m-ticket format rather than the actually sensible and effective e-ticket format. I always recommend the Trainline app when buying tickets on the day. There's no booking fees, they use e-tickets (which do not have stupid activation requirements) and the app itself is very well put together and slickly implements e-tickets within the app as well as giving you a pdf.

I once activated an m-ticket using the Northern app and the train was later cancelled. When I rang up web support to get the ticket refunded I did get a bit of push back from them along the lines of "but the ticket was activated so you cannot refund it" but I firmly pressed home the point that the train was cancelled shortly before the departure time so I had activated it in accordance with the request to do so before getting on the train and besides I didn't think that this changed my entitlements under the NRCoT. They backed down and refunded the ticket.

A stupid format that should have never seen the light of day and has done damage, in my view, to the reputation of the industry and the whole electronic ticketing roll out.

yorkie · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
Ah, cheers, yes it had to be activated and for the stress it caused I'll be using paper tickets from now on.

No need to do that; just use e-tickets.

If you use a retailer who do not issue m-tickets, you can be sure of never being issued with an e-ticket.

For example Trainsplit will issue e-tickets and allows seat selection, where applicable, on reserveable services.

some bloke · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
I was travelling from Shipley to Bradford

Class195 said:
I decided that...I would get the train from Bradford to Shipley and have walk...before catching the train back into Bradford from Shipley.

If you used the return portion first, it isn't surprising the staff didn't understand your explanation - since the outward portion was now invalid. It sounds like a refund was appropriate.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

some bloke said:
If you used the return portion first, it isn't surprising the staff didn't understand your explanation - since the outward portion was now invalid. It sounds like a refund was appropriate.

But I never made the first journey so in effect the ticket should still be valid as would be the case if I have had bought paper tickets.

I don't see anything in the rules that would have stopped me from doing the return first and outward second in the evening?

some bloke · 11 Aug 2020

It's National Rail Condition of Travel 11.3.

No Trains Available | National Rail

We are unable to find your requested journey at this time. Please try and select an alternative route or operator. Thank you.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

WesternLancer said:
I too would have stuck to paper tickets, they would not have asked you anything had you turned up at 10pm with a ticket bought at lunch time would they.

They wouldn't because the ticket would be valid and the barriers would capture it regardless of the time of purchase.

I'm sure some on here might disagree with using the return portion first and the outward portion second but I don't see anything wrong with it especially when disruption to services stopped me travelling by train earlier in the day.

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
I'm sure some on here might disagree with using the return portion first and the outward portion second but I don't see anything wrong with it especially when disruption to services stopped me travelling by train earlier in the day.

It is specifically not allowed to do this, regardless of the reason. You don't have to use both parts, but if you use the return part, the act of starting the journey automatically invalidates the outward part.

If disruption caused a need to do this, the correct action is to refund the wholly unused return and buy another in the opposite direction.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

some bloke said:
It's National Rail Condition of Travel 11.3.

No Trains Available | National Rail

We are unable to find your requested journey at this time. Please try and select an alternative route or operator. Thank you.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

I never knew that condition existed.

So no victory for common sense? No disruption easements?

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
I never knew that condition existed.

So no victory for common sense? No disruption easements?

You don't need to do it. Just refund the whole thing (as you are entitled to do in disruption) and purchase a ticket appropriate to your needs.

WesternLancer · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It is specifically not allowed to do this, regardless of the reason. You don't have to use both parts, but if you use the return part, the act of starting the journey automatically invalidates the outward part.

If disruption caused a need to do this, the correct action is to refund the wholly unused return and buy another in the opposite direction.

So it is! As posted above.
I bet getting the refund in these circs would be time consuming and hassle for a c£3 ticket but I guess you would have to go through the delay repay route and then buy a new ticket whilst you waited for that to be processed.
But with paper ticket I doubt anyone would notice so the relevant conditions of carriage clause would be unlikely to get invoked in reality (I suspect).
Presumably another side effect of the situation where certain returns are not the price of 2 singles.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
You don't need to do it. Just refund the whole thing (as you are entitled to do in disruption) and purchase a ticket appropriate to your needs.

It was an M-ticket and I'd already been told to activate the outward portion by the Northern revenue staff at Shipley to get past them and on to the platform.

The member of revenue staff and I quote said: ”you need to activate your ticket before getting on the train.”

I still believe I acted accordingly as I had two valid tickets for the journey I was taking in the evening, it was just that I'd change the to and from around.

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

WesternLancer said:
Presumably another side effect of the situation where certain returns are not the price of 2 singles.

The reason for it is that it guards (a bit) against people using unclipped period returns as "season tickets".

It's also due to asymmetric pricing, but there aren't that many flows that have that.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

WesternLancer said:
Quite a seriously poor attitude from various staff there I'd say.

Ref activation on the train - that would surely be a potential 'fare dodgers get out' as if you thought you could get away with not activating it you might then be tempted to obtain a refund at the end of the journey if no checks / barriers in place.

How does this work with the rights you have as a passenger to have an 'instant refund' from point of purchase if the train you wish to catch is delayed / cancelled? You would have been entitled to this earlier in the day when you gave up on the journey (not that you should have necessarily done that if you thought 'I'll use this later on'). Is that easy to obtain with these sorts of tickets?

I too would have stuck to paper tickets, they would not have asked you anything had you turned up at 10pm with a ticket bought at lunch time would they.

Once I was told to activate the ticket on the app I couldn't use the refund button because the ticket was activated.

That's why I used it in the evening because I'd paid for something I'd not used.

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

Class195 said:
Once I was told to activate the ticket on the app I couldn't use the refund button because the ticket was activated.

That's why I used it in the evening because I'd paid for something I'd not used.

That is in itself a problem with M-tickets - you're entitled to a refund but it can be hard to get it. It can be a problem with e-tickets as well if an RPI has scanned it e.g. at a barrier.

Don't use the refund button if you're entitled to one due to disruption, it will apply the admin fee. Contact customer services instead.

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
That is in itself a problem with M-tickets - you're entitled to a refund but it can be hard to get it. It can be a problem with e-tickets as well if an RPI has scanned it e.g. at a barrier.

Don't use the refund button if you're entitled to one due to disruption, it will apply the admin fee. Contact customer services instead.

Appreciate your advice and also from the others who have suggested using the e-ticket alternatives like train split.

WesternLancer · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
The reason for it is that it guards (a bit) against people using unclipped period returns as "season tickets".

It's also due to asymmetric pricing, but there aren't that many flows that have that.

Thanks for the added explanations. Of course good points.

30907 · 11 Aug 2020

some bloke said:
If you used the return portion first, it isn't surprising the staff didn't understand your explanation - since the outward portion was now invalid. It sounds like a refund was appropriate.

The slightly odd thing here is that they didn't take this line, rather that it had been activated suspiciously early. At least they eventually accepted that the OP wasn't intentionally dodging a fare.

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

30907 said:
The slightly odd thing here is that they didn't take this line, rather that it had been activated suspiciously early. At least they eventually accepted that the OP wasn't intentionally dodging a fare.

At that point they indeed weren't. That would only have become a problem when later attempting to use the outward portion. Using the outward portion is optional, you just can't do it after the return portion. It works the same as break of journey on a ticket which is not restricted for that - if you've paid for A-B-C-D you can just do C-D if you want, but you can't go back and do A-B or A-C later.

some bloke · 11 Aug 2020

30907 said:
The slightly odd thing here is that they didn't take this line

Yes, they didn't explicitly say it, but they may have been thinking it if the OP told them they'd already used the "return portion". Or staff suspected a second use.

30907 said:
they eventually accepted that the OP wasn't intentionally dodging a fare.

Or maybe staff gave the benefit of the doubt because they didn't understand the story.

If they had understood the story, they would have realised the OP was trying to travel with an invalid ticket - and explained rather than just letting them through.

some bloke · 11 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
That would only have become a problem when later attempting to use the outward portion.

That's what they were doing.

Class195 said:
my Shipley to Bradford ticket which was admittedly activated earlier in the day...wouldn't let me through the barrier

Class195 · 11 Aug 2020

30907 said:
The slightly odd thing here is that they didn't take this line, rather that it had been activated suspiciously early. At least they eventually accepted that the OP wasn't intentionally dodging a fare.

It's quite clear from experiences of myself and others that the gate line staff don't know the correct ticket procedures.

Of course, I wasn't dodging a fare, I had a ticket that I hadn't used up to that point from Shipley to Bradford.

Bletchleyite · 11 Aug 2020

some bloke said:
That's what they were doing.

Oh, sorry, I read it wrong. I thought this issue had occurred while using the return half.

Class195 said:
Of course, I wasn't dodging a fare, I had a ticket that I hadn't used up to that point from Shipley to Bradford.

Well, you technically were (unknowingly) as you were using the outward half having already used the return half.

Howardh · 11 Aug 2020

I must admit I have got on the train and forgotten to activate Northern's M-ticket, which could have got me into trouble, luckily so far I've realised that before inspection. I read from the above there are alternatives to Northern's app which I will look into which avoids this worry.

However, as one can join trainsfrom unguarded stations it's very possible for pax to buy the ticket, store it but forget to activate - so I would like signs at the stations and on the trains "have you activated your ticket?" for forgetbots like myself!!

On the plus side, let's say Trainline v Northern, if I have a m ticket from Trainline, say for off peak return BON-Manchester; If i decide not to travel that day, can it be used anothr day? I have a feeling that if you don't activate the Northern ticket, it's valid a following day (unless you are train-specific advance I suppose)?

WesternLancer · 11 Aug 2020

30907 said:
The slightly odd thing here is that they didn't take this line, rather that it had been activated suspiciously early. At least they eventually accepted that the OP wasn't intentionally dodging a fare.

well, anyone's guess as to whether the gateline staff were familiar with Condition 11.3 ! Once it would have been a given that they were but I'm not so sure now.

M-Ticket activated but not used.

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