Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

AdamWW · 8 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Maybe Wales has got it right and others have got it wrong?

Perhaps - but I think insisting on 2 m spacing and face coverings is, shall we say, quite a novel approach.

Dai Corner said:
Those without access to a car can use the buses, on which the general rule seems to be one passenger per double seat since a meeting between operators and the Government. I have no idea why trains have stricter restrictions.

Where buses are an alternative to trains, yes. Not always the case.

And it gets a bit harder on Sundays. E.g. Cardiff to Caerphilly - ~ 2 trains an hour on Sundays. 0 buses a day.

Though TFW Rail seem to be justifying their policy on the grounds that the Welsh Government doesn't want non-essential travel on any form of public transport.

Belperpete said:
This virus has seen all sorts of freedoms restricted, and will continue to do so for some time to come. Yes, it is unfair that people (like me) who don't have a car are more restricted than others. Just as it is unfair that people (like me) who are more susceptible to the virus have had to isolate more than others. That some are more likely to die from the virus. And so on. Life is unfair, and will continue to be unfair, you need accept it and stop getting so worked up about it.

I hope I have misunderstood because you seem to be suggesting that it is unreasonable to challenge unfair policies because life is unfair. We would I think live in a quite unpleasant world if everyone took that approach.
Some unfairness because of coronavirus is indeed inevitable.

But keeping the Welsh rail network into an expensive 'safe space' for key workers is a political decision, and I am not going to stop challenging the idea that trying to make everyone else who relies on it feel guilty for travelling is wrong - if it wasn't for all the people who previously used it, we wouldn't have a rail network to reserve for key workers.

The fact that the government is proposing some kind of reservation system shows they realise that more needs to be done. The fact that they are moving so slowly suggests to me that they don't actually think it mattes that much.

RailUK Forums

BRX · 8 Aug 2020

https://twitter.com/RSSB_rail/status/1291305917326282754?s=20

1-in-11,000 chance of contracting COVID-19 on trains - coverage of our research in RAIL magazine - thanks @PaulCliftonBBC
@RAIL
and team, look out for this piece in the magazine itself in the next few days

A bit of research into the risks on trains.

Richard Scott · 8 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Maybe Wales has got it right and others have got it wrong?

Personally, I believe the minority of countries (New Zealand, Isle of Man, Channel Islands) have got other aspects right and almost every other country in the world wrong. Not everyone agrees with this, but many here do think Sweden got it right and others got it wrong. The majority is not always right.

Ok if we get out of this mess first with no virus as we've eliminated it and Sweden is still messing about I'll stand up and say you were right but afraid I don't agree and won't be holding my breath on it happening any time soon. At rate we're going we'll still be pussy footing around this time next year.

Bikeman78 · 8 Aug 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Maybe Wales has got it right and others have got it wrong?

Personally, I believe the minority of countries (New Zealand, Isle of Man, Channel Islands) have got other aspects right and almost every other country in the world wrong. Not everyone agrees with this, but many here do think Sweden got it right and others got it wrong. The majority is not always right.

As long as is necessary, presumably.

Compulsory reservations (though there's a thread on that to discuss it further, cheers to whichever mod moved it out).

What if people ignore the requirement for reservations? People going to Barry Island clearly don't care about Covid, which if they are unlucky could kill them, so why would they care about mandatory seat reservations unless not having one became an arrestable offence?

AdamWW · 8 Aug 2020

Bikeman78 said:
What if people ignore the requirement for reservations? People going to Barry Island clearly don't care about Covid, which if they are unlucky could kill them, so why would they care about mandatory seat reservations unless not having one became an arrestable offence?

Or perhaps people going to Barry Island do care about Covid but are able to evaluate risk in a more nuanced way?

At current infection levels the chance of becoming infected, let along dying, from a return train trip to Barry is pretty small, even if the train is too busy by the current rules.

Maybe they're prepared to take that chance so their children can have a day out?

Your logic seems to be that if people can't follow unreasonable advice ("No car? stay at home, possibly for years") then they won't follow rules that are kess draconian.

Dai Corner · 8 Aug 2020

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or start a new thread but as extra buses on the road will hopefully allow restrictions to be eased I'll put it here.

Welsh bus cash crunch averted as ministers pay for ramp-up

A possible cash crunch for the bus industry in Wales was averted this week with the Welsh Government’s announcement of £10m to fund increased servic

www.transportxtra.com

A possible cash crunch for the bus industry in Wales was averted this week with the Welsh Government’s announcement of £10m to fund increased service levels while passenger numbers remain depressed by Covid-19. The Government also pledged to make an announcement of further funding next week.
The news helped to lift a despondent mood in the Welsh bus industry. Service levels in Wales remain lower than those in England and Scotland because the Welsh Government, unlike its counterparts, has not had a fund to pay operators to ramp-up service levels as Covid-19 restrictions have been eased.
One industry analyst told LTT that mileage was probably currently 85-100 per cent of pre-Covid levels in England (outside London); 80-90 per cent in Scotland; but only 50-60 per cent on Wales. The figure will vary between localities.
The analyst estimated that patronage in England (outside London) and Scotland is currently about 40-50 per cent of pre-Covid levels, whereas in Wales it is 20-30 per cent.
Because of the absence of a special grant to pay for service ramp-up in Wales, LTT understands that Welsh bus companies have proportionately more employees on the UK Government’s furlough scheme than operators elsewhere. With the UK Government now starting to wind the furlough scheme down, Welsh operators were privately warning that redundancies might soon have to be made unless the Welsh Government provided some support to the sector.
The £10m will be paid from September.
In a letter to councils this week, Simon Jones, the Welsh Government’s director of infrastructure, said confirmation of further funding was likely in the coming days. “We will seek to provide separate additional assurance over the next week that a minimum level of funding for the remainder of the financial year would be available to support the reintroduction of services.”
Jones has asked local authorities to work with operators to identify services that should receive funding.
“We need to work together at pace to ensure that services are up and running to facilitate the return of schools and colleges in September and provide additional capacity where demand cannot currently be met.”
Councils have only until 17 August to submit proposals to the Government.
Funding will not be awarded to services evenly across councils. “We recognise that because we are seeking a needs-based approach the ramp-up will be non-linear and levels of service will be different (compared with the pre-Covid baseline) across Wales,” said Jones. “We will therefore be unable to apportion money on a formula basis to each region or authority.

Bus reform Bill dropped
The Welsh Government has withdrawn its legislative plans to shake-up the bus industry, blaming Covid-19.
The Bus Services (Wales) Bill includes powers for franchising, Wels Partnership Schemes, and local authorities to run bus services.
The Government said it was withdrawing the legislation because it wanted to work with the industry to establish a future for bus services after Covid-19.
It has since written to operators setting out some thoughts about the way forward.

AdamWW · 8 Aug 2020

Dai Corner said:
I wasn't sure whether to post this here or start a new thread but as extra buses on the road will hopefully allow restrictions to be eased I'll put it here.

Welsh bus cash crunch averted as ministers pay for ramp-up

A possible cash crunch for the bus industry in Wales was averted this week with the Welsh Government’s announcement of £10m to fund increased servic

www.transportxtra.com

Thanks. That's extremely interesting.

So when the government says that public transport is for key workers only, they mean that's all they're prepared to fund it for.

It seems a bit of a political failure to be paying bus drivers to sit at home rather than drive buses, presumably because the furlough money comes from central government but transport subsidies would come from Welsh money.

Dai Corner · 8 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
Thanks. That's extremely interesting.

So when the government says that public transport is for key workers only, they mean that's all they're prepared to fund it for.

It seems a bit of a political failure to be paying bus drivers to sit at home rather than drive buses, presumably because the furlough money comes from central government but transport subsidies would come from Welsh money.

Yes. In a way, it suits the Welsh Government to have lots of workers on furlough as it doesn't cost them anything, nor do they have to subsidise public transport to get them to work due to their social distancing rules making running it uneconomic.

The cost to the UK Government of having a bus driver at work rather than on furlough is effectively 20% of his wages plus the cost of the fuel for his bus. The Welsh Government effectively pay 100% of his wages.

Bikeman78 · 9 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
Or perhaps people going to Barry Island do care about Covid but are able to evaluate risk in a more nuanced way?

At current infection levels the chance of becoming infected, let along dying, from a return train trip to Barry is pretty small, even if the train is too busy by the current rules.

Maybe they're prepared to take that chance so their children can have a day out?

Your logic seems to be that if people can't follow unreasonable advice ("No car? stay at home, possibly for years") then they won't follow rules that are kess draconian.

I think you have misunderstood me. I'm firmly in favour of people using trains. Personally I have no interest in going to the beach but if people want to go to Barry island or Llandudno, good for them. The chippy in Barry Island had a long queue for most of the day so they were happy.

317 forever · 9 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
The Facebook link started off by saying " Use public transport if this is your only option for essential journeys and do not travel unnecessary if you have symptoms of the coronavirus. "
Then when asked about days out the answer was that it was OK. This doesn't seem to be entirely consistent.

(The above appears to be saying that you can use a train with coronavirus symptoms if necessary, which I don't think is the usual advice.)

Their home page says in large writing at the top: " In Wales our trains are for essential travel. "

Not - "In Wales we ask you to use trains only for essential travel"

I notice that the sentence "In Wales our trains are for essential travel" does not include the word "only" anywhere. It could therefore be construed that trains are for essential travel, and for non-essential travel too. 8-)

anthony263 · 10 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
Perhaps - but I think insisting on 2 m spacing and face coverings is, shall we say, quite a novel approach.

Where buses are an alternative to trains, yes. Not always the case.

And it gets a bit harder on Sundays. E.g. Cardiff to Caerphilly - ~ 2 trains an hour on Sundays. 0 buses a day.

Though TFW Rail seem to be justifying their policy on the grounds that the Welsh Government doesn't want non-essential travel on any form of public transport.

I hope I have misunderstood because you seem to be suggesting that it is unreasonable to challenge unfair policies because life is unfair. We would I think live in a quite unpleasant world if everyone took that approach.
Some unfairness because of coronavirus is indeed inevitable.

But keeping the Welsh rail network into an expensive 'safe space' for key workers is a political decision, and I am not going to stop challenging the idea that trying to make everyone else who relies on it feel guilty for travelling is wrong - if it wasn't for all the people who previously used it, we wouldn't have a rail network to reserve for key workers.

The fact that the government is proposing some kind of reservation system shows they realise that more needs to be done. The fact that they are moving so slowly suggests to me that they don't actually think it mattes that much.

Doesn't help stagecoach not running at all on sundays in south wales

Had a lot of passengers complaining at pontypridd bus station about it on sundays. Only service is now our 600 Averdare to Cardiff service. Saw the last trip to Cardiff leave with 12 passengers onboard

AdamWW · 10 Aug 2020

anthony263 said:
Doesn't help stagecoach not running at all on sundays in south wales

No I'm sure it doesn't.

Don't "key workers" travel on Sundays?

It's interesting given that TFW Rail is actually running a good Sunday service in the Valleys.

anthony263 · 10 Aug 2020

Had customers say yesterday about the stagecoach app saying there was a sunday service yet there wasn't. In fact the only bus to Porth Tonypandy Treorchy and Blaencwm on a sunday is me at 2140 from Pontypridd and from Blaencwm to Porth at 2245

SWML9102 · 10 Aug 2020

First trip on TfW last Friday since mid-March and far more busy than I expected (albeit it was a Friday afternoon). 2-car 175 around 70-80% seats taken from Bridgend all the way to Carmarthen, plus some standing. A delayed Paddington to Swansea would have contributed to loadings between Bridgend and Swansea however). Connecting Pembroke Dock service (2x153) at least 50% full from Carmarthen, and pretty much all seats taken after picking up day trippers at Tenby.
TfW seem to be using Silurian Security to enforce mask wearing. Challenging people boarding at Bridgend without masks. Overheard they were waiting to board a Maesteg service to enforce the rules and had been doing same on Barry Island services in the morning. As of Friday mask exemptions only allowed on production of a letter (according to what they said).
Two BTP monitoring at Carmarthen and two PCSOs on the platforms at Tenby.

PHILIPE · 10 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
No I'm sure it doesn't.

Don't "key workers" travel on Sundays?

It's interesting given that TFW Rail is actually running a good Sunday service in the Valleys.

It's the booked Sunday service all over apart from Engineering Work alterations

Richard Scott · 10 Aug 2020

SWML9102 said:
As of Friday mask exemptions only allowed on production of a letter (according to what they said).

Making up their own rules again.

AdamWW · 10 Aug 2020

PHILIPE said:
It's the booked Sunday service all over apart from Engineering Work alterations

Which in the Valleys is an awful lot more than it was a few years ago.

anthony263 · 11 Aug 2020

I've managed to get hold of exception cards for my wife and her parents as they all have medical needs etc. My wife tried wearing a mask but had a severe panic attack because of it.

Im lucky many bus drivers locally know us so don't question my wife certainly I won't question someone if they said they were excempt from wearing a face mask

tramboy · 11 Aug 2020

anthony263 said:
Doesn't help stagecoach not running at all on sundays in south wales

Going back to post 456, when there hasn't been any additional funding into the Welsh bus industry, as Stagecoach will have seen in both England & Scotland at this point, not having a Sunday service allows them to run more during the week and on Saturday, traditionally when higher volumes of people have travelled. It should be noted that Newport Bus aren't running a Sunday service either at the moment, presumably so they can do the same balance of costs and revenue/funding coming in.

I would imagine there has been some pressure for them to restart a Sunday service from the local authorities if they are paying for tendered journeys (as your specific Sunday trip to Blaencwm & back presumably is, along with the 600 timetable if I recall correctly), which has been balanced by them increasing headways in the week.

anthony263 · 11 Aug 2020

The trip I do 9n a sunday is picking up now but its taken quite a while as many have not been able to get out as they used to due to lack of daytime buses on the Sundays. A few have worked outs its cheaper to catch me from treorchy to Tonypandy and get taxi from there than get a taxi from treorchy

The Prisoner · 11 Aug 2020

The no 1 Chester - Wrexham Arriva Sapphire service normally runs every 12 minutes during the day and operates til around 2330 (service less frequent later in the evening).

It is currently running every hour instead and finishes at 1830 or so.

I drove behind what is currently the last service today out of Chester and it had a "This bus is temporarily full" sign on it's LED display. It drove straight past the two stops I followed it past with people waiting.

I could see people inside from my car, but couldn't tell how many.

No doubt the driver was following policy, so no blame attached to him or her, but that's absolutely hopeless.

yorkie · 11 Aug 2020

The Prisoner said:
The no 1 Chester - Wrexham Arriva Sapphire service normally runs every 12 minutes during the day and operates til around 2330 (service less frequent later in the evening).

It is currently running every hour instead and finishes at 1830 or so.

I drove behind the last service today out of Chester and it had a "This bus is temporarily full" sign on it's LED display. It drove straight past the two stops I followed it past with people waiting.

I could see people inside from my car, but couldn't tell how many.

No doubt the driver was following policy, so no blame attached to him or her, but that's absolutely hopeless.

This is the sort of nonsense that could put some people off public transport for life.

Absolutely disgraceful if people were left behind with no alternative.

The Prisoner · 11 Aug 2020

yorkie said:
This is the sort of nonsense that could put some people off public transport for life.

Absolutely disgraceful if people were left behind with no alternative.

I've no idea if they sent another bus out, but there isn't another service that covers the route. You can't reduce a service by 90%+ without consequences.

I live on the route and have made a point of not using the service at any cost because of the draconian messages from the WAG and for worry that I wouldn't be able to get on for the same reason as the above.

The bus serves Chester Business Park where lots of 18-20 ish folk work at the likes of MBNA on shifts in the call centre - lord knows what they are doing now.

Dai Corner · 12 Aug 2020

The latest Welsh Government announcement on additional funding for the bus industry

Extra £10m for buses as school transport guidance published | GOV.WALES

The Welsh Government has announced an additional £10m to help the bus industry safely transport more passengers to school, college and work.

gov.wales

I've copied the text in full below to make it easier to track any changes.

On the same day the Welsh Government has updated its learner transport guidance so that local authorities and bus operators are clear on the steps they must take to ensure that from September children and young people can travel safely to school and college.
The new academic term will see children and young people returning to full time school or college for the first time since March. As a result there will be a significant increase in the number of children, young people and parents relying on bus services to safely transport them to their place of learning or work.
The additional £10m of Welsh Government funding is to help operators manage the increased pressure on scheduled bus services. It recognises that social distancing measures are resulting in reduced capacity and that this in turn is significantly affecting ticket revenue. The additional funding will enable operators to increase the number of buses available while also helping to cover costs associated with additional staffing, fuel and maintenance of the bus fleet.
Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters said:

Coronavirus and the introduction of necessary social distancing laws have placed significant pressure on our bus operators, affecting the ticket revenue on which they rely.
As children and young people prepare to return to school and college from September and as a result, more parents also return to the workplace, we need to do all we can to ensure that people across Wales can safely access reliable bus services.
This additional £10m will enable Local Authorities and operators to determine and deliver the additional services needed to support learners to safely return to school and college. It will also enable bus users who cannot work from home to return to the workplace in a safe manner.
We recognise that this is a very challenging time for our bus operators and we will continue working closely with them and do all we can to support them at this difficult time.

Click to expand...

The Welsh Government has also updated its operational guidance for schools, which includes guidance on transport, catering arrangements and revised shielding and ‘Test, Trace Protect’ guidance. A workforce risk assessment toolkit has also been included.
The Education Minister, Kirsty Williams:

This guidance has been updated to take into consideration the most up-to-date public health advice to enable local authorities, schools and colleges to plan for the safe return of students and staff in September.
It has been my priority for learners and staff to return to schools and colleges as soon as we were assured it was safe to do so, for the benefit of their educational and well-being needs. I would like to once again thank staff for all their hard work in making this possible.

Click to expand...

WLGA Leader and Spokesperson for Transport Cllr Andrew Morgan said:

Recent months have been really difficult for bus and coach operators who we rely on to get our children safely to schools across Wales. Throughout all of this there has been constructive joint working between Welsh Government, local authorities and operators. This latest allocation of funding from Welsh Government will help operators deal with challenges they face as we work with them to get systems back up and running again in time for the return to school.

Click to expand...

CPT Cymru Director John Pockett said:

We welcome this funding from the Welsh Government which follows our negotiations with them. Members will be liaising with ATCO colleagues and Transport for Wales to identify where the funding needs to be targeted.
We want to work closely with the Government here to ensure that the funding support is best used to safeguard the bus industry with passengers firmly at its heart.
We also welcome the guidance from Welsh Government regarding the return of school transport operations, and recognise the hard work of all involved in its formulation during what has been a worrying time for all concerned and we will continue to work in partnership with all stakeholders to ensure the safe transport of pupils.

Click to expand...

In Wales it is the law that people aged 11 and over must wear face coverings on public transport. This law does not apply on school transport.
First published
11 August 2020
Last updated
11 August 2020

AdamWW · 12 Aug 2020

Dai Corner said:
The latest Welsh Government announcement on additional funding for the bus industry

Extra £10m for buses as school transport guidance published | GOV.WALES

The Welsh Government has announced an additional £10m to help the bus industry safely transport more passengers to school, college and work.

gov.wales

I've copied the text in full below to make it easier to track any changes.

Thanks for posting that.

I note:

Coronavirus and the introduction of necessary social distancing laws have placed significant pressure on our bus operators, affecting the ticket revenue on which they rely.

I would have thought that ticket revenue might also have been a bit affected by continually telling people not to use public transport...

carlberry · 12 Aug 2020

Dai Corner said:
In Wales it is the law that people aged 11 and over must wear face coverings on public transport. This law does not apply on school transport.

An interesting part from the Welsh Government announcement. By that do they mean specifically vehicles that are solely contracted for school use, or any school child using transport to get to school which includes a lot of public bus/train journeys?

Dai Corner · 12 Aug 2020

carlberry said:
An interesting part from the Welsh Government announcement. By that do they mean specifically vehicles that are solely contracted for school use, or any school child using transport to get to school which includes a lot of public bus/train journeys?

From https://gov.wales/operational-guidance-schools-and-settings-autumn-term-covid-19

This guidance applies to all dedicated home to school transport. By this, we mean services which exclusively carry learners travelling to and from school and/or settings. This includes:

23
 services commissioned or provided by local authorities, whether or not the service is provided free of charge
 services commissioned or provided by schools and settings
 services provided by transport operators (commercial travel routes) which cannot
be boarded by members of the public at the same time as they are carrying learners to school or settings.
Vehicles that provide transport to members of the public at other times are considered dedicated home to school transport when they are exclusively carrying children and young people travelling to and from school and settings; this includes taxis and minibuses.

There is no requirement to wear a face covering on dedicated home to school transport (Regulation 12A of Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2020). However, a child over the age of 11 who is travelling
24
on ordinary public transport will need to wear a face covering in line with these Regulations. We believe this is appropriate because:
o the overall risk to learners from COVID-19 is very low
o they do not mix with the general public on those journeys
o dedicated home to school transport often carries the same group of learners
on a regular basis
o the predictability, which public transport does not offer in the same way, will allow for planning so that protective measures can be put in place
o the absence of evidence of any substantial benefit from the use of face coverings compared to the potential risks of incorrect use and disposal.

This is particularly interesting for services registered with the Traffic Commissioner as public bus services but not advertised as such by the operator, such as those operated by Newport Transport.

AdamWW · 12 Aug 2020

Fascinating

o dedicated home to school transport often carries the same group of learners on a regular basis

But probably not in the groups they'll be in when at school

o the predictability, which public transport does not offer in the same way, will allow for planning so that protective measures can be put in place

Anyone know what they mean by that?

o the absence of evidence of any substantial benefit from the use of face coverings compared to the potential risks of incorrect use and disposal.

Which many people here would agree with....but why is that only the case for school transport....?

carlberry · 12 Aug 2020

AdamWW said:
Fascinating

But probably not in the groups they'll be in when at school

Anyone know what they mean by that?

Which many people here would agree with....but why is that only the case for school transport....?

Basically somebody has produced some verbage to justify whatever idea they've come up with, even if it goes against their previous idea. Anything else would have meant having to provide more vehicles for transport, or having to have 1 week on and 1 week off.

I did like:

the overall risk to learners from COVID-19 is very low

So learning reduces the risk, perhaps this could be the cure:
Learn something every day to keep the Covid away!

AdamWW · 12 Aug 2020

carlberry said:
So learning reduces the risk, perhaps this could be the cure:
Learn something every day to keep the Covid away!

Yes I like that

carlberry said:
Basically somebody has produced some verbage to justify whatever idea they've come up with, even if it goes against their previous idea. Anything else would have meant having to provide more vehicles for transport, or having to have 1 week on and 1 week off.

Making face coverings compulsory wouldn't have that problem.

Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

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