Advice please. Mistaken intent to travel without valid ticket

Hi everyone. Some advice would be great please on my recent confrontation with a revenue officer for intent to travel without a valid ticket on Chiltern.

I purchased an anytime return ticket online the morning I travelled, remembering that I had a Network Railcard which I keep in my wallet, so applied the relevant discount. I rarely travel on trains now so rarely remember i have the discount and when I do rarely travel on the train I either forget to use it or purposely do not use it, the latter is apparent on the 2 occasion I have travelled on trains this year, once in June and once in July and on both those occasions I have purchased my e-ticket whilst at ‘station A’ or on my journey to ‘Station A’ to go north to friends for the evening and have not had my wallet with me so therefore knowing I do not have the network rail card to accompany my ticket. Knowing I would need my ID in London and that I had booked my ticket with plenty of time, I made a conscious effort to get my wallet out as during lockdown it was locked away safe as I had no need to have it with me on my daily excercise and nor on the occasions I went to shops as have gotten used to Apple Pay and would not need ID for the purchases I made. I was in such a rush to leave the house in the end as I was running late to get to the station that I hadn’t realised I had left my wallet at home. Maybe a combo of rushing plus used to not carrying it... starting my journey at ‘Station A’ all seemed good, as I alighted and went through the barriers at Marylebone i was suddenly confronted by a Revenue officer flashing his badge at me demanding to see my ticket. Slightly startled, plus I had my headphones in, I got my e-ticket on my phone for him to see which he immediately asked to see my network railcard. I tried my pockets and my bag to retrieve my wallet for my network railcard, when the sudden realisation hit me that I had left it at home! I explained this but he pulled me to the side with no explanation of what was going on, told me I was travelling with an invalid ticket, cautioned me and asked me a couple of questions which I then had to sign the document. I did notice and recall thinking afterwards that he had not written the statement on the paper which worries me. I asked what the next steps were, assuming an on the spot fine was brewing but he said that I would receive a letter detailing what’s next based on how the prosecution dept want to take it forward, then let me through the barrier to carry on with my day. I did feel victimised by his stance but at the same time I appreciate he is doing his job and ultimately I was in the wrong.

This ruined my day out and I have had sleepless nights since whilst I await the letter as I am worried what the outcome will be. I really hope an out of court settlement is on the cards as I really can’t have a criminal record hanging over me. In the meantime I have been racking my brains out in anticipation on how to explain my version of the event to in some ways put me at ease.

The added annoyance in this is that when I got home I checked my wallet and found that my Railcard has expired at the end of March 20!! In all honesty I did not even consider the expiry date as to be honest I do not recall purchasing it that long ago, how time flies! However, it’s in black and white, so even if I had my wallet that morning, I would’ve faced the same situation....

My worry is that they may look at this whole situation (separate or combined) as intended, when hand on heart I am a genuine and honest guy who did not intend for either part of this situation to happen.

This is the first time anything like this has happened to me. I used to be a season ticket holder when I worked daily in the city and was always able to support my journey with the valid info. Thoughts on my version of the event was to reply recalling the conversation with the officer and the immediate situation where I could not locate my wallet and if they would please consider a settlement outside of court for all costs associated, leaving out the fact I realised later that my railcard has actually expired - I am just too honest and so some advice on whether I should or shouldn’t include this would be appreciated as I want to mitigate a summons, court appearance and criminal record at all costs.

I have seen some great support on other threads so look forward to some feedback. Thank you

I'll leave it with others to go through the process with you from now, but I would reccommend setting up an electronic railcard - they aren't perfect, but as you seem to be up with technology, it will probably be useful for you. It will always be on your phone (so assuming you always have that you will not forget it), and it reminds you when they expire.

@kristiang85 great thank you, I wasn't aware that was a 'thing' so will look it up for future ref!

Ideally I am looking for some advice on how I go about it all... so fingers crossed some of the nice people on here come back to me

I am slightly confused by a couple of statements.
1. You went through the barriers, you were then stopped...you were let through the barriers. Did your ticket let you through the barriers, or have I misunderstood?

2. What was actually written on the document you signed? What was "the statement" that the RPI "hadn't written"?

I assume that there is nothing unusual about the ticket you bought, but it would be helpful to know what type it was (and indeed the name of Station A).

That said, you unfortunately confirmed that you had a valid railcard when buying the ticket - without checking that this was so. This could reasonably be seen as showing intent as in the thread title. You also didn't have the railcard with you, but that makes little difference.

There is nothing you can do until you hear from the railway. Meanwhile, please set your mind at rest - even in the worst case of a conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act this will spent after a year and it is highly unlikely to have an effect on any career, as many previous threads have pointed out - even a career where whether you are in a position of financial trust.

Should have added - when you are asked, keep the reply short, don't make excuses, admit that you (unwittingly) didn't pay the correct fare, acknowledge that this deprives the railway of revenue that is rightly theirs, and promise not to do it again.

If "the letter" makes a statement that is incorrect (see my query 2 above), do let us know and people will advise.

30907 said:

and promise not to do it again.

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If you follow the advice of a previous poster and buy an electronic railcard, this will also help show your intention 'not to do it again'.

You need to wait for the letter from the Train company or their agent (assume you gave correct address details etc and checked they wrote them down correctly). Then you will have to respond (see post #4) explaining your side of the story. I don't want to sound rude but that needs to be a fair bit shorter then your original post setting out what happened.

IE you forgot your Railcard because during lock down you had been out of the habit of carrying it, and you were unaware it had in fact expired whilst you had not been using public transport, you apologise for the error, do not wish to do it again (so as stated above renew your Railcard immediately to show good intent), and would like to settle the matter as simply as possible etc.

It may be wise to post a draft of your reply for comment and input here when you are asked for it (could be a few weeks or even months, so watch out for post/mail, do not ignore post, have post re-directed by Royal Mail if you move address).

Given the lack of travel people are doing on the trains since March I can see that what happened to you is an easy mistake to make.

also:
"Thoughts on my version of the event was to reply recalling the conversation with the officer and the immediate situation where I could not locate my wallet and if they would please consider a settlement outside of court for all costs associated, leaving out the fact I realised later that my railcard has actually expired - I am just too honest and so some advice on whether I should or shouldn’t include this would be appreciated "

I think wait and see what they write to you with and 'accuse you of' as it were. If you do not admit that you later found out the railcard had expired, and they later find that it had, it would not help you present yourself as an honest person, who ought not to be taken to court (ie it re-inforces the argument that you made a genuine error) - but this is simply a hunch on my part as it is hard to know how the revenue protection team would view that. To project an honest attitude you know that you were not entitled to railcard discounted fare and thus you should offer to pay the undiscounted price to put that aspect of the matter right. I just can't tell you if your honesty will be fully appreciated, but one would like to think it would....

By the way, how did you get home again? Did you buy a new ticket or use the return portion of the discounted ticket you bought at the start of the day (which would have been invalid again as your railcard had expired, but you may not have realised that when getting on the train home for reasons you have explained).

@WesternLancer thank you so much for your advice and comments, much appreciated.

mince the letter comes through I will post back an update and a draft reply.

cheers

It is worth reminding everyone of what the National Rail Conditions of Travel say about forgotten railcards. Now strictly speaking a Penalty Fare (or additional fare) wasn't charged however the spirit is here and I would point this out in your reply.

8.5. If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Condition 9 will apply.

8.6. However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.

8.7. In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12 month period.

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Hadders said:

It is worth reminding everyone of what the National Rail Conditions of Travel say about forgotten railcards. Now strictly speaking a Penalty Fare (or additional fare) wasn't charged however the spirit is here and I would point this out in your reply.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

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Yes, worth the OP and others knowing this but if I have it correct in this case the OP was horrified to find out the Railcard he thought he had, in fact expired in late March 2020, so was well out of date, so in this case it's not advisable to argue along those lines I don't think - and I think the whole aim has to be around forgetting it and then furthermore fessing up to the fact OP was unaware it had expired. "An error I have no intention of making again, and have taken steps to avoid in future by renewing my railcard as soon as I could" etc.

I guess the OP has to aim for payment of the correct fare in full + a hefty admin fee etc as alternative to court action that Chiltern could potentially take.

Ah apologies, I hadn't realised the railcard was out of date

In that case ignore my advice, and proceed with trying to negotiate an administrative settlement.

Hadders said:

Ah apologies, I hadn't realised the railcard was out of date

In that case ignore my advice, and proceed with trying to negotiate an administrative settlement.

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Yes, tho it occurs to me to wonder what happened ref that rule when the OP could not find the railcard that he thought was valid. What do RPI's do at that point - advise you that you can get a refund of a replacement ticket, or that a penalty is refundable if you can show you have the railcard? How does it work given the OP claimed to have one (being unaware it had expired when talking to the RPI).

As an aside, if you have bought a discounted ticket and realise mid-journey that your railcard is expired (as OP says, it is easy to lose track of time!) - can you excess it up if you find a member of staff on the train before they come to you? Or will that be a new ticket required?

Obviously this is somewhat irrelevant here of course as they didnt have it, so I'm just asking out of personal interest.

Proper procedure is for staff to sell a new ticket and advise the passenger submits the Railcard-discounted ticket for a refund if eligible. However most ticket issuing systems will issue the excess, so it can depend on the staff member one encounters.

island said:

Proper procedure is for staff to sell a new ticket and advise the passenger submits the Railcard-discounted ticket for a refund if eligible. However most ticket issuing systems will issue the excess, so it can depend on the staff member one encounters.

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Thanks - for that, helpful to understand.

I think the whole railcard thing needs some leniency at the moment. If the OP card expired in March I am sure he had other things on his mind (like continuing to live and get food).
Mine I think expired in May and other years I have had reminder emails, chase ups if not renewed.
This year I have had nothing, no reminder, or mention of extension, or non extension, due to not being able to use it. No chase up as now 3 months on I have still not renewed it.

packermac said:

I think the whole railcard thing needs some leniency at the moment. If the OP card expired in March I am sure he had other things on his mind (like continuing to live and get food).
Mine I think expired in May and other years I have had reminder emails, chase ups if not renewed.
This year I have had nothing, no reminder, or mention of extension, or non extension, due to not being able to use it. No chase up as now 3 months on I have still not renewed it.

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I would disagree. It’s the traveller’s responsibility to know that they have a valid railcard. Whilst you might get reminders, they are as much a marketing communication as anything else. They shouldn’t obligate the railcard provider to provide one to such an extent that a failure to do so is a valid excuse as to why you didn’t know it was out of date.

I think any such encouragements to renew received during April and May when the service and use of the service were so restricted would have attracted scorn from this forum for encouraging to buy things they cannot use. As ever, the railway cannot win.

WesternLancer said:

By the way, how did you get home again? Did you buy a new ticket or use the return portion of the discounted ticket you bought at the start of the day (which would have been invalid again as your railcard had expired, but you may not have realised that when getting on the train home for reasons you have explained).

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It would be helpful to get an answer to this.