I was up in London last week and when on a 717 on my way to Enfield Chase there was an announcement saying that I should move forward one coach if I wanted to alight at Bowes Park. When we arrived there my coach was completely in the platform with about 3-4m to spare. A 717 fits quite comfortably, so why don’t the back coach doors open? I noticed a sign saying that some other stations also were ‘not rear coach’. Are these the same, and can you think of any other 'short' platforms in name only?
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Stations with short platforms that aren't
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I've been on a 222 that stopped at Longport (due to the Midland Grand National at Uttoxeter), where it was announced that doors to the rear coach (that I was sitting in) wouldn't be opened. I've no idea why, as the whole of the train was in the platform.
PennineSuperb
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There could be a few reasons behind this, but I am not sure of the set up of the stock that you have mentioned above, however, I sign 185's, 802's and 68's and Mk5A's so can go into some information on these.
185's have a door system known as C-ASDO. This is Coach - Automatic Selective Door Opening. In its basic form, when the train runs into a platform it passes over a beacon telling the train that that coach is on the platform. This is coach based so either opens a whole coach or no doors at all. So if 5 coaches roll over the beacon you get door release on 5 coaches. The beacons are set 13.5m in from the platform end and the receiver on the train is placed within the middle of the coach roughly on the battery box. Because of this, if 6 coaches are on the platform but it has not passed the beacon the doors in the 6th coach will not release. An example of this is Thirsk in the Down direction. All the train is on the platform, but the train has not completely passed the 13.5m set length.
There is very little overrun protection with C-ASDO but will reset at a predetermined reset point.
If for example you stopped out of course i.e at a signal and gave door release the train would not allow it as the train has not passed over a beacon.
Class 68's and Mk5A's are completely different. It is the Drivers responsibility to stop the train +/- 1m from the associated stop car board. Any more or any less and there is a risk that the rear door (or front door) on the rear (planned platformed) coach will open. However, in the real world there is slightly more wiggle room. The Driver will then check the ASDO screen to check the train is at the correct station and correct platform if relevant and then give door release. 802's are very similar.
185's have a door system known as C-ASDO. This is Coach - Automatic Selective Door Opening. In its basic form, when the train runs into a platform it passes over a beacon telling the train that that coach is on the platform. This is coach based so either opens a whole coach or no doors at all. So if 5 coaches roll over the beacon you get door release on 5 coaches. The beacons are set 13.5m in from the platform end and the receiver on the train is placed within the middle of the coach roughly on the battery box. Because of this, if 6 coaches are on the platform but it has not passed the beacon the doors in the 6th coach will not release. An example of this is Thirsk in the Down direction. All the train is on the platform, but the train has not completely passed the 13.5m set length.
There is very little overrun protection with C-ASDO but will reset at a predetermined reset point.
If for example you stopped out of course i.e at a signal and gave door release the train would not allow it as the train has not passed over a beacon.
Class 68's and Mk5A's are completely different. It is the Drivers responsibility to stop the train +/- 1m from the associated stop car board. Any more or any less and there is a risk that the rear door (or front door) on the rear (planned platformed) coach will open. However, in the real world there is slightly more wiggle room. The Driver will then check the ASDO screen to check the train is at the correct station and correct platform if relevant and then give door release. 802's are very similar.
PennineSuperb
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That is also another good example, these train sets don't use all the platform as the Scarbrough end of the platform has a drop in height which is too great for passenger use. However the step height is different on 2 X 185's meaning it is safe for passenger use with some mitigation, i.e mind the step announcements.
Ashley Hill
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Newton St Cyres is local door only despite the long platform. Trouble is there's a Harrington Hump as there's a very high step. Parson Street and Bedminster have long platforms but only short parts of them are in use causing SDO or local door operation
The Desiro stock I sign has a similar way of operation, except that when the TMS passes over a beacon it’ll tell the train x amount will be accommodated, however if the driver then has a stop short, the system will still allow stop short door releases.
The system on the 802s sounds far too complicated. You would think with brand new stock C-ASDO would only arm the coaches accommodated. If anything it’s a backwards step and increases dwell time.
Out of interest, does the driver actually put up the door release or does the driver give some sort of signal that they’ve completed the door set up and then the guard pings the doors?
PennineSuperb
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On 185's the guard gives door release - before doing so checking the a small LED has illuminated in the cab to show that the train has read at least one beacon. This doesn't tell you which one, just that at least one coach has read one beacon. The guard then checks the trains stopped where it should be and if safe to do so gives door release.
On 68's & Mk5A's the Driver stops in the right place and then gives door release when they have secured the train and checked the ASDO screen shows the correct door pattern for the platform. Once they have released the train doors the Guard then keys in and carries out train dispatch. Drivers are only trained to open the train doors when the ASDO system is working correctly and any out of course working, for example coming on top of one at a permissive platform, loss of GPS to the system, ASDO failure etc, they will give door control back to the guard. Guards can have full door control at any time and each door control panel is fitted with a manual SDO switch to enable doors 'ahead' or doors 'behind' that panel to be released.
On 802's the Driver stops in the correct place, secures the train and then checks the TMS to check the correct station and platform are showing. There is more input required from the Driver here with some tapping on the TMS compared to the 68's & Mk5A's. They then give door release when they are happy that it is correct. Once they have released the train doors the Guard then keys in and carries out train dispatch. The 802's always force door release via the Drivers TMS.
For 802's there are a few door system setups that can be used.
DOO - Driver open, Driver close.
DGO-D - Driver open, Guard Close.
DGO-G - Guard Open, Guard Close. However (!) The Driver has to still check the TMS is showing the correct station and platform information and when this is correct they press a 'Train Door Control' button which sends door control to the Guard, who insets a key and can open the train doors.
In either Guard operated circumstance when their local door is shut the Driver has to get involved again, either by pressing the 'Train Door Control' button or giving full door release.
DorkingMain
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Peckham Rye Plat 4 with a 700 is the same.
Thanks for that detailed response. Very interesting to compare how things work there.
London Trains
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I believe 8 car trains just fit at Mitcham Junction, but the SDO is set to open 7 cars.
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I think its Platform 9/10 at Clapham Junction where SWR trains don't open all the coaches, though it appears to be entirely on the platform - but only just
Just about the whole of the Goblin, so extensively and expensively "extended" for 4-car trains instead of 2-car, actually had onetime 8-car platforms, generally still in situ but allowed to become dilapidated and weed-strewn apart from a little 2-car length, which could surely have been extended without such a gargantuan project.
py_megapixel
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The interesting insight into the operation of C-ASDO on the 185s has got me thinking - I remember travelling to Windermere when TPE had that route still, on a 185, and at Burneside and Staveley we got the "please make your way to the door opened by the conductor" announcement implying local door operation at those stations.
However, looking on Google Maps the platforms look very long and could easily accommodate a single coach of a 185 - if not the whole thing! - to facilitate operation as @PennineSuperb described.
What was going on there?
However, looking on Google Maps the platforms look very long and could easily accommodate a single coach of a 185 - if not the whole thing! - to facilitate operation as @PennineSuperb described.
What was going on there?
PennineSuperb
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The C-ASDO only came into operation this year. It was suppose to come in last year but the day it was turned on caused a massive meltdown of the TPE network so was shut down on the day. I don't sign the route you mention however it could be that a Harrington Hump was installed and only the middle vehicle could be safely accommodated on the platform. You can never have just the leading vehicle doors (on a 3 car) open because there is no Guards door controls in the front vehicle (except in the driving cab and of course the Driver would be there) but you could have just the middle vehicle on the platform with a 'Local Door Only' system.
After a conversation with a very helpful colleague who did sign that route, at Burneside it was single door operation because of an issue with the station lighting at the Windermere end and at Staveley it was due to a large gap between the train and the platform.
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Just come home on the 15:56 from Gathurst to Southport, and the guard announced that only the rear doors would open at New Lane and Bescar Lane. Both platforms were recently extended to 4-car length (presumably for 769's?) , and sitting in the front car of 4 I thought we were in the platform at New Lane certainly; at Bescar Lane I didn't notice.
Flange Squeal
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Longcross can hold eight coaches worth of doors on the traction types that run the line, but this requires the cab ends to be on the ramp. Around the time 458s were extended from 4 to 5 coaches, the stopping point was revised. Previously all trains (450s, 455s or 458s) were either 4 or 8 coaches in length and stopped in the same place. Now, trains with ASDO (450s and 458s) stop at a new S car mark that is set back a bit and only 7 coaches open, but 455s (which don't have a form of SDO) can still stop in the old position and all 8 be opened. A similar situation exists at Isleworth.
Killingworth
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1B66 Manchester - Cleethorpes TPE 185 called at Platform 2 at Sheffield on Monday. That used to take very long trains, possibly 16 coaches. Message below displayed inside the train!
Sheffield has a short platform. Please move to the front five coaches if you wish to leave the train
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Tetchytyke
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That's really interesting, thank you.
Before C-ASDO did the 185s just have UDS that other Desiros use? I remember being on a double 185 at Leyland where the whole train was clearly in the platform but only the front set was advertised as stopping there.
More generally, both these seem to be issues with the infrastructure which require correction, but are somehow stuck instead on the train operator to handle with inconvenient operation. I presume the large gap between train and platform didn't happen overnight.
PennineSuperb
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It depends how long ago this was. When I started at TPE (2011) it was most acceptable to UDB (Unit Door Blocking) with passengers on board the train. In fact this happened as a Method of Work at Warrington Central every night a 6 car was rostered to work the service. However in around 2014/2015 this process stopped as it was claimed the UDB function was only for use without passengers. UDB is still used however the back set has to be out of use, for example due to a fault with the cab to cab equipment.
With UDS (Unit Door Select - on ex-TPE 350's) you could have passengers in the rear portion with it operational.
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Tetchytyke
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It was a good while ago, back when the 185s ran to Scotland and Blackpool via Bolton. Some of them ran as 6-car to Preston before splitting but only the front three (IIRC the Blackpool portion) was advertised as calling at Leyland.
DorkingMain
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Platform 10 is 10 coaches long at Clapham Junction and 10 will release. You are right though - on 9 the 11th coach is on but doesn't open, and on 7 the 10th coach is on but doesn't open.
adamedwards
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Hendon on the down slow. Rear car of an 8 car 700 stays shut, but on the platform. This is however on a curve, so I assume a sightline issue? (Did once get on a 12 car at Hendon when services in a mess with the rear 4 cars not opening, which was impressive!)
Ashley Hill
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Perhaps a topic for a new thread (please move if necessary) is local door operation satisfactory where long trains regularly stop at short platforms? It's ok for out of coarse stops but if it's a regular thing then surely the platform sould be extended accordingly!
Killingworth
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There are a lot of short platforms that need extending , and some are at stations you might not expect. Many were shortened or parts taken out of commission in the years of decline. Reinstating and rebuilding seems to be a major task requiring line possessions as well as a lot of cash.
Gimsby is too short for a 6 coach train. Barnetby that had platforms reconstructed only last year still can't take 6. The length is there but the massive ramped footbridge now obstructs it.
DorkingMain
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Depends. If it's a lightly used station with a one coach long platform, it's definitely arguable there's no business case to extend the platforms.
If the reason you're having to run local door only is because you're stopping a 3 coach train on a 2 coach platform and you don't have SDO, then there's definitely something to be said for expanding the platform by at least a coach length.
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