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European Sleepers - What routes would be feasible?

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jamesontheroad

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There are some very interesting leisure routes emerging in Europe! I read somewhere Snälltåget are launching a similar service to the Alpen-Sylt Nacht Express but over a much longer route running all the way to Stockholm

Yes, runs for six weekends in February and March. It departs Stockholm 10:00 Fridays, calling Malmö 15:20 and arriving Zell am See in Austria the next morning. Return journey leaves Saturday evening and reaches Malmö 13:15 Sunday and Stockholm 18:50. Plus they’re taking the famous Snälltåget “krog” (“pub”) dining car with them. :E
 
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RT4038

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There are some very interesting leisure routes emerging in Europe! I read somewhere Snälltåget are launching a similar service to the Alpen-Sylt Nacht Express but over a much longer route running all the way to Stockholm and RejioJet's Prague - Rijeka (which was so popular its frequency was re-introduced)...

Is there any reason that Eurotunnel car carriers couldn't run further afield? I can see the potential for a US style Auto Train with loading at the Eurotunnel terminal in Folkestone running to Spain, to Italy and other holiday destinations - passengers could travel on existing Eurotunnel trains (In busses as happens on the VSOE if necessary) through the tunnel (eliminating the need to build rolling stock passes the tunnel safety requirements) and change to sleeping cars at Calais Frethun whilst the motorail carriages are shunted to the train.

I do not think they would be in gauge for use in Europe, but even if they were, Eurotunnel did not have any spare to run services like that. There would have to be new build, the cost of which to be factored in the fare, which would be of such an amount that any potential market will evaporate.

I will be surprised if these leisure routes emerging are not a flash in the pan.
 

Alfonso

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Interesting stuff, thanks for that.

Isn't the humble Couchette wagon a wonderful invention?
I think so, and I think Regiojet "sleepers" which are actually couchettes with one side made up as beds and the other left as seats are a great idea. I've always preferred the big window and face to face seating of couchettes over the staring at a blank wall ambiance of sitting in a sleeper.
 

Alfonso

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Maybe, but Snälltåget has been running night trains from Malmö to the Swedish mountains for a couple of years now.
I think it all depends how costs are allocated. Most if not all could not break even if they needed new rolling stock but many should be able to cover the cost of depreciated rolling stock, staffing and marginal costs of track access
 

Bald Rick

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Is there any reason that Eurotunnel car carriers couldn't run further afield?

Just two reasons:

1) the average price per car one way for the 50km crossing is around £80. How much do you think it would be for a 1000km trip?

2) the shuttle carriers would get as far as the first bridge / platform / train coming the other way on the SNCF Network before disintegrating in a pile of twisted metal.
 

MarcVD

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Is there any reason that Eurotunnel car carriers couldn't run further afield?

As far as I know, those cars largely exceed the loading gauge of any continental railways, may be at the exception of ex USSR.
 

RT4038

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I think it all depends how costs are allocated. Most if not all could not break even if they needed new rolling stock but many should be able to cover the cost of depreciated rolling stock, staffing and marginal costs of track access

So if most if not all sleeper services could not break even if they needed new rolling stock, where is this depreciated rolling stock going to come from? A small amount from some heavily subsidised intra-national routes? Doesn't seem a viable business plan with a long term future. How much repeat business will come using 40 yr + old cars on long distance routes?
 

Alfonso

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So if most if not all sleeper services could not break even if they needed new rolling stock, where is this depreciated rolling stock going to come from? A small amount from some heavily subsidised intra-national routes? Doesn't seem a viable business plan with a long term future. How much repeat business will come using 40 yr + old cars on long distance routes?
Long term maybe not, but in the short to medium term there seem to be quite a few underutilized couchettes and maybe sleepers too with at least some life left in them
 

James James

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Long term maybe not, but in the short to medium term there seem to be quite a few underutilized couchettes and maybe sleepers too with at least some life left in them
A lot of those have been snapped up though recently, with all the new services starting next year, no?

1) the average price per car one way for the 50km crossing is around £80. How much do you think it would be for a 1000km trip?
Most of that price will be various fixed costs (including tunnel specific costs that don't apply for normal railway lines), the component that scales with distance will be rather small.

No reason not to just use conventional car carriers as is still done on some of the Nightjets (beyond demand existing - and that's the tricky part).
 

Peter Kelford

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As far as I know, those cars largely exceed the loading gauge of any continental railways, may be at the exception of ex USSR.
Well it's GC gauge so theoretically, it's what new lines are built for. Thus in theory a car carrier to Strasbourg, to Montpellier, to Marseille or at a push (not knowing what the loading gauge on the Grande Ceinture is) Bordeaux is possible.
 

Alfonso

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A lot of those have been snapped up though recently, with all the new services starting next year, no?
I'm no expert on what's available and don't want to drift too far into speculative ideas, but couchette cars are used as seats cars on both flixtrain and intercites 100% eco services, so there are at least a couple of rakes that could be used. AFAIK they are used as they are available and cheap, not because there's a shortage of loco hauled seated stock.
 

Bald Rick

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Well it's GC gauge so theoretically, it's what new lines are built for. Thus in theory a car carrier to Strasbourg, to Montpellier, to Marseille or at a push (not knowing what the loading gauge on the Grande Ceinture is) Bordeaux is possible.

Just for clarity, the Eurotunnel car carriers are much larger than GC gauge. They are nearly a metre taller and a metre wider. As I said above, any that attempted to leave the ET Network on to SNCF metals would rapidly be end up in a mangled heap.
 

RT4038

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Long term maybe not, but in the short to medium term there seem to be quite a few underutilized couchettes and maybe sleepers too with at least some life left in them

Well that sounds a really good business plan. Let's spend money on establishing a product for which we know that there is no way it is economical if new equipment has to be purchased, and there is little or no prospect of a continuing supply of affordable used equipment.

Old rolling stock, especially if intensively used, becomes very expensive to maintain, and is susceptible to becoming unusable due to changing standards.

A flash in the pan then.
 

Alfonso

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Well that sounds a really good business plan. Let's spend money on establishing a product for which we know that there is no way it is economical if new equipment has to be purchased, and there is little or no prospect of a continuing supply of affordable used equipment.

Old rolling stock, especially if intensively used, becomes very expensive to maintain, and is susceptible to becoming unusable due to changing standards.

A flash in the pan then.
I'm not so sure, while I don't think overnight trains are likely to be more than a niche in the overall scheme of things, and you'd never build infrastructure just for them, the environment has changed...legacy airlines have taken multi billion subsididies, open access operators are showing that innovation is possible, track access charges that act as a barrier to entry and protection for the incumbent are falling. I wouldn't say the future for night trains is bright, but it's certainly not over either
 

jamesontheroad

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I'm no expert on what's available and don't want to drift too far into speculative ideas, but couchette cars are used as seats cars on both flixtrain and intercites 100% eco services, so there are at least a couple of rakes that could be used.

Is that still true for Flixtrain in Germany?

Prior to COVID, Flixtrain contracted Bahnouristikexpress (BTE) to operate some routes, but there was an acrimonious termination of that relationship earlier this year. BTE now use their couchettes for their own Alpen-Sylt night train (and as noted above, apparently have plans in place to launch other services next year).

Now, Flixtrain contracts operation of line 20 (Köln-Hamburg) to IGE and line 30 (Köln-Berlin) to SVG. Both are using former DB Regio rolling stock, refurbished by Talbot Services in Aachen (Bmmz and Bmmdz). There are no more couchettes in daytime use by Flixtrain.

(Here's the source for that information: http://www.railvolution.net/news/flixtrain-in-service-again)
 

87015

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No all the Flix currently operating is now pretty awful high density new refurbs of ex-IR stock ripped apart. Still opening windows which is a disaster in Germany especially on the high speed bit where they won't have them open despite the coach baking. Will pay DB more next time, not worth the saving to downgrade to Flix anymore.

The Stuttgart-Berlin stock is dumped around Berlin and haven't seen anything about that restarting with either the old stock or will be more new refurbs.
 
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James James

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Old rolling stock, especially if intensively used, becomes very expensive to maintain, and is susceptible to becoming unusable due to changing standards.
Maintenance: perhaps, but then you'd end up buying new stock once the route is proven. (That's the SBB approach at least.)
Changing standards: examples? Has any stock on the continent run into issues due to changing standards? I can imagine some door upgrades perhaps, but I don't imagine that's a topic nowadays (and it's not hard to upgrade doors if needed - vs. what needs to be done with Mk3's) - and MAYBE tanks for toilets (also not that complicated), but everything else is pretty simple: hook and chain coupling, carriages compatible with multiple voltages, what's going to change there?
 

RT4038

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Maintenance: perhaps, but then you'd end up buying new stock once the route is proven. (That's the SBB approach at least.)
Changing standards: examples? Has any stock on the continent run into issues due to changing standards? I can imagine some door upgrades perhaps, but I don't imagine that's a topic nowadays (and it's not hard to upgrade doors if needed - vs. what needs to be done with Mk3's) - and MAYBE tanks for toilets (also not that complicated), but everything else is pretty simple: hook and chain coupling, carriages compatible with multiple voltages, what's going to change there?

But that is just the point - it is already known that sleeping car routes are not going to proven to the extent that they afford to purchase new stock. Where have SBB done this successfully? Nowhere.

As far as changing standards are concerned - could be doors, could be toilet tanks, could be construction techniques, could be different standards that the fare paying public are prepared to accept (air conditioning/strangers in compartments/no en-suite toilet etc). Susceptible, not a certainty. Some upgrades will be cheaper than others.
 

jamesontheroad

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The Stuttgart-Berlin stock is dumped around Berlin and haven't seen anything about that restarting with either the old stock or will be more new refurbs.

I expect it will be more refurbished InterRegio stock - Talbot have a contract to modernise 135 vehicles, delivering through to 2021. So more are to come and will likely become the mainstay of the Flixtrain fleet in Germany.

(Maybe in Sweden too... we have yet to see what the proposed Flixtrain Sverige carriages will be; Hector Rail will provide the traction there)
 

HSTEd

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Is there any reason that Eurotunnel car carriers couldn't run further afield?

The Eurotunnel car carriers are hilariously out of gauge for use anywhere except the Channel Tunnel.
They are almost as tall as the recommended US gauge for double stack operations, but far wider.

Depressing given that that is pretty much the only way motorrail, and by extension sleepers, can even approach profitability IMHO.
 

edwin_m

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The Eurotunnel car carriers are hilariously out of gauge for use anywhere except the Channel Tunnel.
They are almost as tall as the recommended US gauge for double stack operations, but far wider.

Depressing given that that is pretty much the only way motorrail, and by extension sleepers, can even approach profitability IMHO.
The reason they are wider is to allow people to travel in their own vehicles. If separate sleeping accommodation was provided then they probably wouldn't need to do that, and they probably couldn't anyway because of the number of people having to walk past all the other vehicles to get to their own.

But seeing as both Motorail and sleepers are marginal concepts at best, I don't see how combining them will suddenly make them profitable.
 

HSTEd

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The reason they are wider is to allow people to travel in their own vehicles. If separate sleeping accommodation was provided then they probably wouldn't need to do that, and they probably couldn't anyway because of the number of people having to walk past all the other vehicles to get to their own.
Well you would probably provide the sleeping accomodation on what is currently the upper car deck!
So the only people passing would bet o the nearest staircase.


But seeing as both Motorail and sleepers are marginal concepts at best, I don't see how combining them will suddenly make them profitable.

It probably wouldn't.
But car carriers in the Eurotunnel style could probably make motorrail profitable, given that they allow dramatically increased productivity and reduced labour expenses.
 

edwin_m

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Well you would probably provide the sleeping accomodation on what is currently the upper car deck!
So the only people passing would bet o the nearest staircase.

It probably wouldn't.
But car carriers in the Eurotunnel style could probably make motorrail profitable, given that they allow dramatically increased productivity and reduced labour expenses.
I can't find a dimension for the internal width of a shuttle but I doubt they are wide enough to allow a vehicle to drive past a flight of stairs (and you'd also need lifts for PRMs). And what about the single-deck wagons for high vehicles?

Not sure how a wider car carrier increases productivity either. I can't see any reason why people wouldn't be able to drive their own vehicles on or off either type, with appropriate design such as side doors so drivers can get to and from their vehicles without having to squeeze past others. Either way there would need to be marshals guiding each vehicle individually to ensure they park in the right place.
 

HSTEd

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I can't find a dimension for the internal width of a shuttle but I doubt they are wide enough to allow a vehicle to drive past a flight of stairs (and you'd also need lifts for PRMs).

And yet staircases do exist on the shuttle! (Indeed if they didn't, how would you evacuate people on the upper car deck?).

Apparently this is a picture of the planned refurbishment? (I didn't know there was one but ok)

And what about the single-deck wagons for high vehicles?

What fraction of people have high vehicles though?
Even with the rise of 4x4 I don't think its that large.

Not sure how a wider car carrier increases productivity either. I can't see any reason why people wouldn't be able to drive their own vehicles on or off either type, with appropriate design such as side doors so drivers can get to and from their vehicles without having to squeeze past others. Either way there would need to be marshals guiding each vehicle individually to ensure they park in the right place.

Drivers self load and the train can start rolling the second the last vehicle is stopped aboard?
No need to mess around witing for people to get out of their cars and closing masses of side doors.

Unloading at the other end can also commence immediately upon train arrival as everyone will be in their vehicle before the train stops?

(In daytime operations you can load and unload simultaneously and have turnarounds set entirely by the time for a driver to drive from one end of the set to the other).
 
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Bald Rick

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And yet staircases do exist on the shuttle! (Indeed if they didn't, how would you evacuate people on the upper car deck?).

Apparently this is a picture of the planned refurbishment? (I didn't know there was one but ok)



What fraction of people have high vehicles though?
Even with the rise of 4x4 I don't think its that large.



Drivers self load and the train can start rolling the second the last vehicle is stopped aboard?
No need to mess around witing for people to get out of their cars and closing masses of side doors.

Unloading at the other end can also commence immediately upon train arrival as everyone will be in their vehicle before the train stops?

(In daytime operations you can load and unload simultaneously and have turnarounds set entirely by the time for a driver to drive from one end of the set to the other).

It’s not quite that simple as regular users of the shuttle will verify.

It takes about 5-10 minutes after loading the last vehicle before the train can roll, as it has to close up the loading vehicles (including retracting stabilisers, doors etc.) and the train has to be proved compartmentalised for fire protection and the HVAC systems have to have done their stuff removing exhaust fumes etc. Then it’s ‘TRTS’ and wait for the ‘signal’ to pull off.

Arrival is a bit quicker, I think my best from wheel stop to being off the shuttle was 2 minutes, and that was being the very front vehicle.

Whilst you can unload and load simultaneously, the first unloading car can only start loading at the same time as the very last car starts unloading. It normally takes at least 5 minutes from the first unloading car to leave the train until the last one to leaves, and more than twice as long to reload, as each vehicle has to be carefully positioned by the on train team, and the fire barriers deployed.
 

popeter45

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off topic but i do wonder if there was ever any consideration of making HS1 tunnel gauge so potentially they could have extended motorail services closer to London?
 

Bald Rick

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off topic but i do wonder if there was ever any consideration of making HS1 tunnel gauge so potentially they could have extended motorail services closer to London?

No, as it would have needed 4 tracks and have cost about 3 times as much.
 

James James

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But that is just the point - it is already known that sleeping car routes are not going to proven to the extent that they afford to purchase new stock. Where have SBB done this successfully? Nowhere.
Well of course they haven't done this successfully because they haven't actually launched yet - they're launching the route next year, with plans to use used stock for 3 years (at which point the new stock comes in if ordered). Bit silly to claim it's not worth it when used stock is precisely what they're using?

As far as changing standards are concerned - could be doors, could be toilet tanks, could be construction techniques, could be different standards that the fare paying public are prepared to accept (air conditioning/strangers in compartments/no en-suite toilet etc). Susceptible, not a certainty. Some upgrades will be cheaper than others.
You've listed a bunch of hypotheticals, which haven't blocked usage of existing stock any time in the past (except for Mk3's and non-PRM stock in the UK). It's not likely to be an issue in the first place, and generally stock that is already running doesn't get blocked from continuing to run on the continent. If this were an issue, then various companies wouldn't actually be using used stock - but they are.
 

JonasB

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I think it all depends how costs are allocated. Most if not all could not break even if they needed new rolling stock but many should be able to cover the cost of depreciated rolling stock, staffing and marginal costs of track access

Maybe, but as long as you make more money selling tickets than it costs to operate the train, you might as well run the train instead of parking the coaches somewhere.

But Snälltåget has worked a lot with tour companies selling package tours to ski resorts, and I think that is their main source of income for the ski trains.
 
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