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TOC Branding

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GarethC

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Well, maybe...


Previous company names: "NORTH WEST REGIONAL RAILWAYS LIMITED". Wouldn't stop them using NorthWest branding, of course, though I don't remember any distinct NWRR branding coming in before NWT.
Wasn't the green stripe version of the Regional Railways livery (applied to some Class 156s) the RRNW livery?
 
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adc82140

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Which TOCs now have a prescribed branding no matter who the operator? I can only think of Scotrail and LNER.

I believe GWR to be a First Group thing. Not sure about TfW? Welsh government or Keolis?
 

BluePenguin

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The budget for neat and consistent station signage, white lettering on a navy blue background, must have been accidentally given to, and spent by SWT. :D
Some of that budget must have been shared with Southeastern too as their entire network has the same signs. Every single station sign between Margate and Weymouth have the same dark blue background and white lettering (Southern stations excluded of course). I am sure anyone who travels south of London enjoys these signs and their familiarity. In fact, I feel very out of place when I see stations with black text on white background.
 
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swt_passenger

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Some of that budget must have been shared with Southeastern too as their entire network has the same signs. Every single station sign between Margate and Weymouth have the same dark blue background and white lettering (Southern stations excluded of course). I am sure anyone who travels south of London enjoys these signs and their familiarity In fact, I feel very out of place when I see stations with black text on white background.
Yes, I thought at the time the roll out started on SWT it was being put forward, (in that DfT stations report), as a national standard. Pity it never happened really.
 

lancededcena

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Which TOCs now have a prescribed branding no matter who the operator? I can only think of Scotrail and LNER.

I believe GWR to be a First Group thing. Not sure about TfW? Welsh government or Keolis?

Don't forget West Midlands Railway (Transport for the West Midlands branding) and London Overground\Merseyrail if that counts
 

nlogax

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For the attention of all Rail Alphabet enthusiasts courtesy of Twitter’s @BeautyOfTranspt

Twitter thread

This thread for railway typophiles / Margaret Calvert fans Almost unnoticed amongst the excitement of today's @networkrail station competition is that today also marked the release of Network Rail's new typeface - Rail Alphabet 2 - into the public realm. #RailAlphabet2 [1/11]
 

HarryL

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Hopefully Network Rail will take Rail Alphabet 2 more seriously than they took Brunel and use it to fix the mess of TOC signage in every station, not just NR managed ones. My local station currently has a mix between Northern Rail signage (complete with the dodgy stickers over the old logo) on the station name boards and old BR signage that is getting grimy for the rest.
 

tetudo boy

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A franchise/concession like Merseyrail absolutely does not let you forget that you're travelling with them, station signage, furniture, trains and literature are all in really consistent branding at the customer facing level, with nothing being anything but yellow and grey.
As a Merseyrail rider, I can relate. :)

If you're looking for branding everywhere, look at some of the stations when Virgin Trains used to operate. Branding everwhere!
 

C J Snarzell

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As a Merseyrail rider, I can relate. :)

If you're looking for branding everywhere, look at some of the stations when Virgin Trains used to operate. Branding everwhere!

Merseyrail definately have the strongest branding out of any of the TOCs. Everything is consistent and strong everywhere with the yellow schemes and their staff uniforms are generally identical.

As they are one of the country's smallest TOCs, they have a smaller estate to look after, so nothing seems to be neglected or overlooked.

CJ
 

Meerkat

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If you’ve been following Peter Hendy’s Twitter closely you’ll know that station signs will be standardised with black text on a white background in the new Network Rail font based on Rail Alphabet...
That would be a real shame - the white on navy looks very classy.
 

Atomix330

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But how long is it going to matter with the end of franchising - surely its now a moot point and black on white Rail Alphabet 2 is going to rule supreme...
 

nlogax

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Hopefully Network Rail will take Rail Alphabet 2 more seriously than they took Brunel and use it to fix the mess of TOC signage in every station, not just NR managed ones. My local station currently has a mix between Northern Rail signage (complete with the dodgy stickers over the old logo) on the station name boards and old BR signage that is getting grimy for the rest.

Your local station may keep its Northern Rail signage. RA2 is destined for Network Rail-managed stations. Other TOCs are free to use it but whether they actually will..
 

JaJaWa

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I remember he originally mentioned in response to a complaint about Derby’s signs (which isn’t NR managed).
 

birchesgreen

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Yes a non-white background is better for readability and can help if you have dyslexia.

I think black on white looks classy (maybe because its classic) not drab TBH.
 

swt_passenger

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VT Stop means Virgin Trains. Where there were different lengths, you got VT 4/5/8/9/11 Car Stop.

I've also seen "Class 22x stop" in other places.
It does, but VT was allegedly also “reverse engineered” to mean voyager trains elsewhere than on the WCML, when Arriva took over XC in 2007. It saved the necessity to change all the signs away from the WCML on XC Routes.

But does it count as “branding” anyway, it’s an operational sign aimed at drivers. Which is probably the real reason there was no consideration given to changing them for no public facing purpose.
 

Bletchleyite

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It does, but VT was allegedly also “reverse engineered” to mean voyager trains elsewhere than on the WCML, when Arriva took over XC in 2007. It saved the necessity to change all the signs away from the WCML on XC Routes.

I think that is not dissimilar to the official line that HSBC doesn't stand for "Hong-kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation" any more - it's a very picky argument, in other words. Technically it doesn't now, but that's where the letters originated, so unless you're being picky that's what it stands for.

You're right though that for operational signage it doesn't make any odds what it means because it's not passenger facing. There are plenty of other examples, often because of hard coded things in IT systems - VT for Avanti West Coast, AW for Transport for Wales, LM for West Midlands Trains etc. And the same elsewhere - U2 is the 2 letter code for easyJet UK, for example (I wonder is Stelios a fan?) - but you only see it on "avgeek" type websites, not in an airport.
 

tomwills98

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Pretty darn sure that the whole 'look' in Wales is the government's shout, KeolisAmey merely painting things how the government tells them to.
Branding is very government issue and it'll all be known as Transport for Wales, rather than Transport for Wales Rail Services. So when the trams and buses get properly started, it'll all be one big, TfW branded family.

I'd say it's a good thing the government have their name plastered on the side of the trains as it gives them a reason not to neglect it and pay attention to how it's running. Makes it very hard to pin the blame on an invisible private entity
 

450.emu

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It's strange that Bushey station has plain station signs in the TfL Johnston font, yet no other Overground logo's (Roundels), on the platform served by LNWR stoppers. Yet Watford Junction is a mixture of signs old and new (obsolete TOCs logos covered over with duct tape, only Southern's logo remains), TfL signage on the Overground platforms, and LNWR signs elsewhere... standardised signage would be great, if now the days of franchises are over.

I don't know why there can't be a TfL style livery for the trains and whoever runs the services isn't so important It would save on all the rebranding every few years.

TfL have done that with the buses for years, ie Arriva London is in a recognisable TfL livery with Roundels and small fleetnames. Operators can still choose corporate colours for seat moquette etc...
 

Stigy

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It depends on the franchise, but when SWT became SWR, they had a lot of trains knocking about with South West Trains written on them, and as SWT was in effect tied to Stagecoach, they were made to change it very quickly. That’s why it’s still acceptable for GWR trains to have First Great Western on the side of them - because although the brand has changed, the parent company remains the same. In fact, their trading name is Great Western Railway, but their actual company name if First Greater Western.
 

swt_passenger

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It depends on the franchise, but when SWT became SWR, they had a lot of trains knocking about with South West Trains written on them, and as SWT was in effect tied to Stagecoach, they were made to change it very quickly. That’s why it’s still acceptable for GWR trains to have First Great Western on the side of them - because although the brand has changed, the parent company remains the same. In fact, their trading name is Great Western Railway, but their actual company name if First Greater Western.
I think the opposite happened in practice. Because the word “Stagecoach” didn't appear on the trains, and the phrase South West Trains wasn’t tied to Stagecoach as you said, then the existing logos remained well beyond changeover day, and were only changed gradually. (Except for the couple of units fully vinyled into SWR for publicity)

The discussion at the time mentioned how long the renaming seemed to take, compared to previous instances of ownership changing, where de-naming happened in the weeks running up to changeover, and was all removed by the necessary date.
 

Stigy

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I think the opposite happened in practice. Because the word “Stagecoach” didn't appear on the trains, and the phrase South West Trains wasn’t tied to Stagecoach as you said, then the existing logos remained well beyond changeover day, and were only changed gradually. (Except for the couple of units fully vinyled into SWR for publicity)

The discussion at the time mentioned how long the renaming seemed to take, compared to previous instances of ownership changing, where de-naming happened in the weeks running up to changeover, and was all removed by the necessary date.
The rebranding didn’t happen as it should have done, overnight. But SWR would have happily kept their trains they hadn’t been at least externally rebranded as having South West Trains on them. If they weren’t pushed in to it, I very much doubt they’d have bothered with the white, South Western Railway stickers that are on all trains that haven’t been repainted/wrapped.
 

DazrahT

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If you’ve been following Peter Hendy’s Twitter closely you’ll know that station signs will be standardised with black text on a white background in the new Network Rail font based on Rail Alphabet...

I've said for years that station signage should be similar to that on the continent, blue background, white text sans serif typeface, standardised across the network regardless of operator. Most people couldn't give two hoots who runs the stations (or the trains), they just want to get from A to B
 

tbtc

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How refreshing to see a thread where people complain about the fact that TOCs haven't actually repainted/replaced all "old" signs etc straight away, after reading all of those threads where people complain that privatisation is more expensive because TOCs have to replace signage/ uniforms every few years

Why not just have one brand - British Rail - and then have the trains labelled with “operated by First Trentalia” etc?

Well, BR didn't just have one livery and one brand, certainly not in the time I've been using trains - they were happy to have local liveries (e.g. the Glasgow "blue train") and local branding well before privatisation was on the agenda
 

3141

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Some people get worked up about having all station nameboards the same, others welcome different styles from different TOCs - well, some of them, anyway. But from a passenger's point of view, all you need is a board that's clear and legible so that you know where you are. If people don't care who runs the stations or the trains, they probably won't worry if nameboards are in different styles.
 
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