Does this also mean that TfL stations will also stop selling new Oyster cards? If so, how will this work for visitors to London who are railcard holders, and therefore need an Oyster card for the railcard to be added to, rather than just using contactless? Will they need to leave the national rail station they have arrived at (even where the tube station is within it) to find an retail Oyster ticket outlet, buy the Oyster card, and then return to the tube station to have the railcard added? That would make little sense.
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TfL ticket machines and offices going cashless
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No it doesn’t. As I’ve already said; the premise of the survey is wrong. All* transactions will still be carried out, but not cash ones.
*This will however mean that immediate refunds for cancelled Oyster cards will however no longer be possible.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Have they not removed that functionality anyway, since the deposit quietly became a charge a while ago? Or can you still get a refund of the outstanding balance?
The £5 charge gets added to your balance anyway after a year. So you can still get the remaining balance + £5 back but just have to wait a year from when the card was activated.
You can still get your money back by getting intouch with Oyster; it’s just that the refund (max £10) was issued in coins.
Some MFMs can issue notes out
Yes I meant coins however to mean that it wasn’t paid back onto a bank card for instance - should have said “money” or "cash" I suppose.Some MFMs can issue notes out
thedbdiboy
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The NRCoT is a schedule to the TSA so it is relevant. And the NRCoT is incredibly laborious to amend because the DfT require changes to have been consulted with Transport Focus, London TravelWatch and the ORR prior to deciding themselves whether they want the change to take place.
221129
Established Member
No it doesn't.
OK, but it might have been helpful if you'd maybe explained where the information is found.
The NRCOT refers you to www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets for the guide to tickets. That page includes a link to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx which explains valid forms of payment. The first method of payment listed is: Cash!
py_megapixel
Established Member
While I agree that @221129's post was rather ambiguous/nonspecific, that page doesn't actually say that there is a right to pay by cash - it simply says that cash is currently accepted.
221129
Established Member
That webpage is easily updated when they do remove the ability to pay by cash.
There is a problem for a global city such as London in not taking cash, namely that cash is a handy fallback option,particularly for foreign visitors. I work in a supermarket which in an area with a large number of foreign students who come from countries where signature authorisation is the norm. Needless to say these can't be used on self service tills. I imagine it's the same for self service machines. Cash however would be no problem for them. I've experienced a similar situation myself with card network compatibility in the Netherlands.. It turns out a lot of smaller shops (and a few big ones) only accept Maestro (haven't seen one of those in years) and v-pay (never seen one ever!) and are incompatible with mastercard, visa and amex. To be fair this wasn't a problem with transport where at least the former two of these were accepted but tfl will really have to ensure it accepts about every card going (Union pay, jcb, discover anyone?) to ensure foreign tourists aren't put off. And then what to do about signature cards? It's not like a machine can read a signature in most cases. This is just from my experience, it may have been thought about already.
Signature cards will work perfectly well on properly configured self service checkouts, the system will simply prompt for an attendant to sign in and verify the signature.
Low value transactions can already be processed without a signature.
For the tiny minority who travel without an accepted card – the types you mention above usually now are co-branded with a proper international network such as MasterCard or Visa – they can still use cash at Visitor centres, Oyster ticket stops, many National Rail stations, or the Tramlink shop.
Deafdoggie
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My local supermarket has an electronic sign pad where customers sign electronically at the till. Either a member of staff manually checks the signature or it’s done electronically, depending on the card issuer. It’s certainly not an insurmountable problem either way.
And the member of staff who will do this in a tube station?
Isn’t necessary; just gets authorised normally.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Doesn't sound like a bad idea, I can see the merits from the TfL side.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Given the sums involved on TfL not being huge, it would probably make sense for them to accept the card "at risk" without signature or PIN if it flags up as a non-chip or non-PIN card. They can do this; the M6 Toll, for example, does.
There are special rules to this effect in the card schemes for unattended terminals including toll booths and parking machines. I am not sure whether they apply to ticket machines, and no longer work for a card issuer so have no access to look it up.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Sounds like a really bad idea to me given historical levels of fraud on TfL
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Is it not generally the case (other than contactless) that a retailer can forego a security measure but on condition that the transaction is "at risk", i.e. if there's fraud it is charged back without question, and if the balance is too low they aren't paid? Or does that only apply to online authorisation?
In most cases the terminal simply won’t allow it. Mine doesn’t allow PIN bypass or key-entry of card number for a cardholder present transaction any more, for example. (If the card‘s chip prompts for signature then of course this still is offered.)
Deafdoggie
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It depends how the machine is configured with the bank & retailer. Generally, but not always, if paying for goods or services in advance, then anything goes, as the retailer can stop the transaction if the payment fails.
Obviously for TfL this isn’t the case, but they may still take the risk or not mind people without suitable cards being unable to buy at the station.
I’m sure that an organisation like TfL will negotiate a bespoke set up with the banks about how to deal with card transactions that require a signature, overseas issued cards etc.
There is precedent for this as there are separate procedures for Contactless cards when used for transit.
There is precedent for this as there are separate procedures for Contactless cards when used for transit.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though notably only for touch-in touch-out usage. For purchasing a paper ticket an authorisation is still done straight away (in Arriva's case for 10p, for some reason).
Well yes, purchasing a ticket is a retail mode operation.
And transit mode is also authorised from time to time. If the card fails then it is added to a "let them out but not back in list".
Two more thoughts:
- Is there precedent for this on other transport networks? Thinking of the ones I’m familiar with - NYC, Singapore, Hong Kong, Amsterdam, Paris, Japan - all accept cash.
- The next logical step from this would be suspending the sale of paper tickets, since they are most useful to those without either contactless cards or Oyster. I personally hope that doesn’t happen as certain ticket types are only available from LU TVMs in paper form, for example day travelcards and platform tickets.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect that London is probably the most anti-cash city in the world, other than possibly somewhere in Scandinavia. Most Londoners who have a debit card just don't use cash any more day to day, certainly younger people. That may well have been led by TfL's removal of cash from buses, of course.
Japan you'd think would be relatively advanced in that regard but it is still very much a cash culture. Go there if you get chance, it's a real enigma of a country (and beautiful too).
I could see this happening, indeed I'm surprised it hasn't already happened. Any Londoner will already have an Oyster or working contactless card, and if you moved there acquiring one would be an early priority. So all you would really need is the facility to purchase and load (and refund) an Oyster card at the major London termini (which could be contracted to the TOC booking office) and the present newsagent facilities for those who live in the sticks.
Is it possible to do a refund transaction via contactless, so that the value of the cancelled card is added back via that route?
Since customers have been able to do self service refunds at the machines, these have always been given back in money, irrespective of the original payment method.
London Underground Passenger Operated Machines also do not have a Contactless payment method option; the card must be inserted into the device and a Pin entered where applicable.
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