A TPE Class 802 got up to 145mph - A record?

HarryL · 30 Nov 2020

rebmcr said:
Yes, I was indeed replying to a question about IETs.

When I say IETs I of course mean all 80x models (in this threads case let's say the east coast ones, LNER and Transpennine), just calling them all the one sensible name.

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Railperf · 30 Nov 2020

rebmcr said:
Yes, I was indeed replying to a question about IETs.

It would make sense to have some form of speed supervision system over 125mph linked to the signalling system.
The Europeans have had such a system for years - French have preannonce in cab signalling on conventional 200km/h lines - Italians have SCMT almost nationwide. Shame we haven't rolled something similar across the UK in all these years - apart from ATP in limited use.

ainsworth74 · 30 Nov 2020

Railperf said:
It would make sense to have some form of speed supervision system over 125mph linked to the signalling system.
The Europeans have had such a system for years - French have preannonce in cab signalling on conventional 200km/h lines - Italians have SCMT almost nationwide. Shame we haven't rolled something similar across the UK in all these years - apart from ATP in limited use.

I'm sure there was a stat doing the rounds at some point that we had the most amount of railway cleared for over 100mph without any form of speed supervision/in-cab signalling.

RailWonderer · 30 Nov 2020

I'm surprised only York Northallerton is being considered and not some of the south ECML as well. The time saving would be negligable otherwise, under 1 minute certainly. The 80xs would only need a software upgrade as they are 140mph ready already with in cab signalling so that keeps costs lower. I assume only signalling and new signage would need to be installed.

nlogax · 30 Nov 2020

Found the relevant passages. Emphasis mine. I'm happy to take this to a new thread if it makes more sense?

https://northeastca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020.10.20-JTC-Public-Agenda-Pack.pdf

North East Joint Transport Committee Tuesday, 20th October, 2020 at 2.00 pm Meeting to be held virtually via Microsoft Teams

Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) TfN’s work on the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) Scheme is reaching a critical moment as it develops its Strategic Outline Case to be submitted to the Government, as well as seeking to influence the outcome of the National Infrastructure Commission’s work on an Integrated Rail Plan. The preferred network for NPR will be decided through a ‘sifting’ process that is about to begin, that will take forward three or four options for the business case. The Leeds-Newcastle section of NPR is primarily the East Coast Mainline (ECML) potentially combined with a short section of HS2’s Eastern Leg between Leeds and York. The TfN Board will be asked to consider the results of sifting in November, and it is expected that the options that may be taken forward will include the reopening of the Leamside Line (either full or partial) to divert freight away from the ECML. At its meeting on 17th September the TfN Board considered a report on phasing which is the order in which the full scheme will be delivered and built. TfN’s preferred phasing scenario would see some of the work on the ECML being put at the start, with some upgrades to the existing route in the first 5-year period (2025-30). This would include 140mph running York-Northallerton, and an upgrade to Darlington and Newcastle stations. Further work would follow in the next two five year periods. The JTC has always maintained that work on upgrading the ECML should come Page 40 first because not only is it is an enabler for HS2 and other services as well as NPR, but it is also a relatively easy scheme by comparison with the highly intrusive and costly sections of new build line elsewhere.

ABB125 · 30 Nov 2020

nlogax said:
Found the relevant passages. Emphasis mine. I'm happy to take this to a new thread if it makes more sense?

https://northeastca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2020.10.20-JTC-Public-Agenda-Pack.pdf

North East Joint Transport Committee Tuesday, 20th October, 2020 at 2.00 pm Meeting to be held virtually via Microsoft Teams

The question I have is why 140mph? Has this been deemed the most economical speed, or have "they" arbitrarily decided on this just because Class 800s can do it?

Assuming 25 miles of track is to be upgraded (it's roughly 27.5 miles in a straight line between the Harrogate line and Middlesbrough line junctions), at 125mph this takes 12 minutes. At 140mph, 10.7 minutes, 155mph 9.7 minutes. So not really that much time saved. (Yes, I know I haven't accounted for acceleration etc, but I've sort of fudged that in by using a nice round distance!)

nlogax · 30 Nov 2020

ABB125 said:
Assuming 25 miles of track is to be upgraded (it's roughly 27.5 miles in a straight line between the Harrogate line and Middlesbrough line junctions), at 125mph this takes 12 minutes. At 140mph, 10.7 minutes, 155mph 9.7 minutes. So not really that much time saved. (Yes, I know I haven't accounted for acceleration etc, but I've sort of fudged that in by using a nice round distance!)

I would have to assume this is less about time savings, more about Northern Powerhouse Rail flag waving with 'we have 140mph running on classic lines'.

ABB125 · 30 Nov 2020

nlogax said:
I would have to assume this is less about time savings, more about Northern Powerhouse Rail flag waving with 'we have 140mph running on classic lines'.

Although if that's the case, "we're running at 155mph on classic lines" sounds even better!

hexagon789 · 30 Nov 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I'm sure there was a stat doing the rounds at some point that we had the most amount of railway cleared for over 100mph without any form of speed supervision/in-cab signalling.

I read once that until ~1994 the UK had more services timed for over 100mph than any other country, I never quite understood if that meant averaging 100mph+ between certain points or running at over 100mph.

Wapps · 30 Nov 2020

hexagon789 said:
I read once that until ~1994 the UK had more services timed for over 100mph than any other country, I never quite understood if that meant averaging 100mph+ between certain points or running at over 100mph.

British Rail did an advert on it, although they said “any other country in EUROPE”.

irish_rail · 30 Nov 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I'm sure there was a stat doing the rounds at some point that we had the most amount of railway cleared for over 100mph without any form of speed supervision/in-cab signalling.

And is it thus a coincidence we have more or less the safest major railway in Europe?. Id suggest not. Leaving the driver with a degree of responsibility enhances driver performance.
Admittedly, pre TPWS there was probably TOO much on the driver, but with TPWS I think the balance we have is just right.

westcoaster · 30 Nov 2020

Class 700's are limited to 102mph, once you hit that speed the power cuts out automatically. You also recieve a fault message on the TMS alerting you to the fact.
377s and 387 would keep going.

Class 170101 · 30 Nov 2020

I understood that all trains have to do an 'overspeed' test something like 10% over normal maximum. Now I thought most of this was done on the WCML and as such for 140mph it would be 154mph. How does a driver see signals for this?

Ianno87 · 30 Nov 2020

Class 170101 said:
I understood that all trains have to do an 'overspeed' test something like 10% over normal maximum. Now I thought most of this was done on the WCML and as such for 140mph it would be 154mph. How does a driver see signals for this?

Presumably fine for a one off run in a specially timed path with limited traffic in front (so limited risk of cautionary signals) and probably an extra pair of eyes in the cab.

Egg Centric · 30 Nov 2020

I regularly (or would be were it not for the C-word) drive at speeds in excess of 145mph in a car, and can confirm the difference between 125 and 145 is very noticeable. I would go as far as saying that it's as clear as the difference between, say, 50 and and 70. It's very surprising to me that a train driver would be unable to notice the difference, although I appreciate you guys are much 'higher up'.

supervc-10 · 30 Nov 2020

I trust that's on German derestricted autobahn! :lol:

There's significant difference in the sensation of speed between 50 and 70 in different cars and on different roads. 70 on a motorway feels pretty gentle. 70 on narrow country road, on the other hand, definitely feels quick. The difference in sensation of speed between my little Seat Ibiza and a Range Rover is significant, even both doing 70 on the motorway.

Other posters have stated that the area of the line where this happened is very flat and very straight, which is definitely closest to the motorway side of things!

Wapps · 1 Dec 2020

ABB125 said:
The question I have is why 140mph? Has this been deemed the most economical speed, or have "they" arbitrarily decided on this just because Class 800s can do it?

Assuming 25 miles of track is to be upgraded (it's roughly 27.5 miles in a straight line between the Harrogate line and Middlesbrough line junctions), at 125mph this takes 12 minutes. At 140mph, 10.7 minutes, 155mph 9.7 minutes. So not really that much time saved. (Yes, I know I haven't accounted for acceleration etc, but I've sort of fudged that in by using a nice round distance!)

I’m not sure how it all fits together, but if they build the new Manchester to Leeds line and that is 140mph+ capable, when you join them up, doesn’t it overall create added value. Especially if HS2 stock are using it.

A TPE Class 802 got up to 145mph - A record?

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