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It was twenty years ago today...(The contract for the Danish IC4 was signed)

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Gloster

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According to the day’s anniversary post (now taken down) on the Danish website myldretid.dk, it was twenty years ago today, not that Sergeant Pepper taught the band to play, but that DSB signed the contract with Ansaldo-Breda for the IC4 DMU. Something that really has turned into a nightmare.
 
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squizzler

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Was the experience one of the reasons for the Danish deciding to quit commissioning specialist rolling stock in favour of getting their network up to modern standards capable of running off the peg stock? Hence the programme of 25kv electrification and ETCS signalling? Silver linings and all that.
 

superalbs

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AnsaldoBreda didn't build the IC3, it was Adtranz or whatever it was called at the time. Does an IC1/IC2 exist?
Two types of IC2 exist. One is an IC3 with two carriages, and the other is an IC4 with two carriages.

The former in service with a private operator in the South of Denmark, including a weird low floor section I think.
Example:
1607708098579.png
By Niels Karsdorp, Dh3201 - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3744172

The latter I think is withdrawn from Danish service, but now works out in Romania, with an 'interesting' new livery, and Danish signs still inside.
Example (in Denmark):
1607708223488.png
By Morten Haagensen - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=31173879

Example (in Romania):
 
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Gloster

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Only thirteen of the two-car design for local services, the one that looks like a shortened IC3, were built. They were known at times as an IC2, but now usually referred to as an IR2; all are in use east of the Great Belt. The other IC2 was the little brother of the IC4: all are withdrawn - some never fully entered service - and have either been scrapped or sold. There never was an IC1, but the IC3 was and still is very successful, being the backbone of the Danish intercity network: however, it did have its teething troubles.

What was wrong with their IC4 DMU out of interest ?
Where do you start? The type was riddled with design and manufacturing faults, and never worked properly. One of the biggest problems was that coupling and uncoupling of units was unreliable: this is an important point as portion working is normal in Denmark. Of the 83 built some never fully entered service - one turned up in Libya - and around twenty have been withdrawn.
 
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yorksrob

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Though the first one might actually get you where you're going.
Only thirteen of the two-car design for local services, the one that looks like a shortened IC3, were built. They were known at times as an IC2, but now usually referred to as an IR2; all are in use east of the Great Belt. The other IC2 was the little brother of the IC4: all are withdrawn - some never fully entered service - and have either been scrapped or sold. There never was an IC1, but the IC3 was and still is very successful, being the backbone of the Danish intercity network: however, it did have its teething troubles.


Where do you start? The type was riddled with design and manufacturing faults, and never worked properly. One of the biggest problems was that coupling and uncoupling of units was unreliable: this is an important point as portion working is normal in Denmark. Of the 83 built some never fully entered service - one turned up in Libya - and around twenty have been withdrawn.

Yes, twenty years should be enough to sort out teething troubles.
 

Gloster

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Was the experience one of the reasons for the Danish deciding to quit commissioning specialist rolling stock in favour of getting their network up to modern standards capable of running off the peg stock? Hence the programme of 25kv electrification and ETCS signalling? Silver linings and all that.
Although DSB took most of the blame, the IC3 was a prominent subject in the media for more than ten years and it became clear that one problem was that Denmark had been slow to electrify. I think it sunk into the minds of politicians that unless they authorised electrification, in twenty years a new generation of high-speed diesels might need to be ordered. As such things would probably have to be another special design, if that design also had problems, then some of the blame might fall on to the heads of politicians. (Or maybe I am a cynic.)
 

43096

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Although DSB took most of the blame, the IC3 was a prominent subject in the media for more than ten years and it became clear that one problem was that Denmark had been slow to electrify. I think it sunk into the minds of politicians that unless they authorised electrification, in twenty years a new generation of high-speed diesels might need to be ordered. As such things would probably have to be another special design, if that design also had problems, then some of the blame might fall on to the heads of politicians. (Or maybe I am a cynic.)
They have at least learned from it. Faced with a choice of two for their new electric locos they decided Skoda were too much of a risk (ask DB and ČD!) and took the sensible option of buying the proven Vectrons from Siemens.
 

yorksrob

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That is because it does not move.
Can't believe that AnsaldoBreda was chosen for Fyra after that track record.

To be fair, there are plenty of photogenic trains that do move !

That one sounds to have been a bit of a botch though.
 

Gloster

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They have at least learned from it. Faced with a choice of two for their new electric locos they decided Skoda were too much of a risk (ask DB and ČD!) and took the sensible option of buying the proven Vectrons from Siemens.
DSB made it clear when placing all their recent orders that they wanted proven designs. I don’t think that, even if a first-class new design had been offered, that they would have risked the media and political outcry.
 

43096

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DSB made it clear when placing all their recent orders that they wanted proven designs. I don’t think that, even if a first-class new design had been offered, that they would have risked the media and political outcry.
Yes, I saw that requirement at the time the tender was launched. I was astonished Skoda even bothered bidding as by no stretch could their loco really be considered proven (only 28 have been built). Perhaps DSB kept them in the process to keep Siemens honest as Bombardier didn't have a 200km/h loco in service at all?
 

Gloster

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Yes, I saw that requirement at the time the tender was launched. I was astonished Skoda even bothered bidding as by no stretch could their loco really be considered proven (only 28 have been built). Perhaps DSB kept them in the process to keep Siemens honest as Bombardier didn't have a 200km/h loco in service at all?
I think that Skoda was just trying to show that it was now one of the big boys. If I remember correctly, DSB had indicated that it wanted to have a minimum of three bidders on the shortlist.
 

JonasB

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The latter I think is withdrawn from Danish service, but now works out in Romania, with an 'interesting' new livery, and Danish signs still inside.

It is withdrawn from service, but one train has been handed over to the Danish Railway Museum. (There was a lot of jokes when it was handed over about whether the museum had plans to restore it to working order or just keep it on static display. Others replied that getting it to working order would not be historically accurate and a static display is a more true representation of the IC2s service in Denmark.)
 

Gloster

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It is withdrawn from service, but one train has been handed over to the Danish Railway Museum. (There was a lot of jokes when it was handed over about whether the museum had plans to restore it to working order or just keep it on static display.)
Of the twenty-three IC2, one set went to the museum and up to fifteen were sold to Rumania “without guarantee”, although only seven have left so far. The others have been or will be scrapped; many only saw four years of very limited use, having been delivered up to six years late and never working properly.

N.B. The 2, 3 or 4 in IC2/3/4 refers to the number of sections, not the generation.
 

jamesontheroad

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This is my periodic opportunity to express the sincere opinion that the DSB IC3 is one of Europe's most utterly interesting trains. The IC4 débacle serves to emphasise just how innovative and original DSB and ABB Scandia were in designing a completely new and unique diesel train from the ground up to suit the specific needs of rail travel in Denmark. A simple yet revolutionary solution to quick and easy coupling and uncoupling of multiple units (with the fold-away driver's cab); a configuration designed to facilitate quick and easy loading on and off ferries and decent comfort too.

Don't forget that about fifty IC3 continue in service in Israel and about a dozen remain in Sweden as Y2 on the unelectrified Kustpilen services in the south of the country.
 

Bletchleyite

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decent comfort too

What an understatement - superb comfort, with the seats best described as armchairs (they are every bit as comfortable as they look).

One DSB set was named after one of the BR interior designers (who I think had some sort of input into them) and had some very British-looking "NSE-style" coach-end murals on it, though I half recall a refurb has taken these out. The feel is more than a little bit like an updated aircon Mk2 coach in many ways.

Fainsa Sophia? Pah.
 

43096

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What an understatement - superb comfort, with the seats best described as armchairs (they are every bit as comfortable as they look).
Having travelled on an IC3 for the first time only last year, they were one of the most pleasant surprises in a long time that I've had using a train - seats as you describe.

My onward connection was one of the AnsaldoBreda IC4 contraptions. No it didn't fail. But the ride was appalling and the interior standard of fit was what you'd expect from that builder.
 

Gloster

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One DSB set was named after one of the BR interior designers (who I think had some sort of input into them) and had some very British-looking "NSE-style" coach-end murals on it, though I half recall a refurb has taken these out. The feel is more than a little bit like an updated aircon Mk2 coach in many ways.
IC3 set 85, the last of the original build, is named after Jens Nielsen, who was DSB’s chief designer 1971-1992 and also a member of BR’s Design Panel for a period. Unfortunately for him, he qualified to have a set named after him as all the personages whom sets were named after had to be dead; he died in 1992 aged fifty-four.
 

dgl

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I wonder if the fabled Wimbledon depot could have got the IC4's working properly given their history with the 458's, but I guess they are that bad only a scrapyard could make them earn their pay!
 

riceuten

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As I recall. one of the IC4s DSB ordered went missing, and was discovered in the desert in Libya, having been a "present" from Silvio Berlusconi to General Ghadhafi.

"In March 2013, as well as in earlier media reports, it was reported that one of the missing IC4 trainsets planned for delivery in Denmark had been found in Libya. Reportedly, AnsaldoBreda and the then Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi gave Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi the trainset as a present in 2009 on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of Gaddafi's accession to power"



"The IC4 units were originally scheduled to enter DSB's Intercity service in 2003. On 25 June 2007, one IC4 unit (trainset no. 4) entered regional service between Aarhus and Aalborg. On 27 August 2007, another test train entered regional passenger service between Aarhus and Fredericia in eastern Jutland. Two further units entered regional service during the autumn of 2007"
 

Gloster

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As I recall. one of the IC4s DSB ordered went missing, and was discovered in the desert in Libya, having been a "present" from Silvio Berlusconi to General Ghadhafi.

"In March 2013, as well as in earlier media reports, it was reported that one of the missing IC4 trainsets planned for delivery in Denmark had been found in Libya. Reportedly, AnsaldoBreda and the then Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi gave Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi the trainset as a present in 2009 on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of Gaddafi's accession to power"



"The IC4 units were originally scheduled to enter DSB's Intercity service in 2003. On 25 June 2007, one IC4 unit (trainset no. 4) entered regional service between Aarhus and Aalborg. On 27 August 2007, another test train entered regional passenger service between Aarhus and Fredericia in eastern Jutland. Two further units entered regional service during the autumn of 2007"
It was reported that the first DSB knew about the appearance of set 09 in Libya was when a journalist contacted them to ask what it was doing there and they thought it was a hoax.

The IC4 were supposed to be delivered between autumn 2003 and the end of 2005, with the last deliveries being ready to go straight into service. The last deliveries were around six years late and not ready for service.
 

Bletchleyite

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IC3 set 85, the last of the original build, is named after Jens Nielsen, who was DSB’s chief designer 1971-1992 and also a member of BR’s Design Panel for a period. Unfortunately for him, he qualified to have a set named after him as all the personages whom sets were named after had to be dead; he died in 1992 aged fifty-four.

Cheers, that's the one.
 

LOL The Irony

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As I recall. one of the IC4s DSB ordered went missing, and was discovered in the desert in Libya, having been a "present" from Silvio Berlusconi to General Ghadhafi.

"In March 2013, as well as in earlier media reports, it was reported that one of the missing IC4 trainsets planned for delivery in Denmark had been found in Libya. Reportedly, AnsaldoBreda and the then Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi gave Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi the trainset as a present in 2009 on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of Gaddafi's accession to power"



"The IC4 units were originally scheduled to enter DSB's Intercity service in 2003. On 25 June 2007, one IC4 unit (trainset no. 4) entered regional service between Aarhus and Aalborg. On 27 August 2007, another test train entered regional passenger service between Aarhus and Fredericia in eastern Jutland. Two further units entered regional service during the autumn of 2007"
It was reported that the first DSB knew about the appearance of set 09 in Libya was when a journalist contacted them to ask what it was doing there and they thought it was a hoax.

The IC4 were supposed to be delivered between autumn 2003 and the end of 2005, with the last deliveries being ready to go straight into service. The last deliveries were around six years late and not ready for service.
Here's a video of said train
 

Alfie1014

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One of the most amazing things about the IC3/IR4 family is that they uncouple on the move (just like slip coaches of yore!) the first time I saw it happen at Frederica station I thought a major incident had happened!
 
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