ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Azzy49 · 16 Dec 2020

Clansman said:

That's got me thinking, will the first 5 Coach HST enter Service around the May timetable change? With more 5 sets than 4 when I first heard of that I was more surprised that the first set was a 4 coach set. Wish that was the new Livery for EMU's and DMU's as the Blue Livery is now 11 years old. I still remember getting on 170434 at Dundee for the first time when the current Livery was new and when 434 was the first in that livery... back in 2009 where it was freshly painted.

Me and my mum I remember always got a Scotrail Barbie 170 to Aberdeen but because she hadn't seen the current Livery before when it just rolled out on 434 she asked one of the Station staff if it were going to Aberdeen which it was. One time I recall getting a GNER set.

Wish Scotrail did 9 carriage sets I know that's a dream. Can imagine how big of an extension you'd need on the end Platforms at Dundee to accommodate that. I've always wished they'd transform the Dundee rail yard bit (where they keep the spare Trains) into a Station extension so we could atleast have 7 platforms instead of 4. Would be nice to have a few other Terminus Platforms especially for LNER. Seen sometimes some Aberdeen Services going to Aberdeen the wrong platform seen some Hsts do that too but never know why.

RailUK Forums

marks87 · 17 Dec 2020

Why would Dundee need additional terminus capacity for LNER?

And indeed, why would ScotRail running 9-car HSTs require an extension to the existing terminus platforms? Few if any “Inter7City” services terminate there.

There’s also no “wrong” platform for trains to/from Aberdeen. Both through platforms are bi-directionally signalled. While it’s true that 1 is normally southbound and 4 northbound, it’s not all that uncommon for them to “swap”.

hexagon789 · 17 Dec 2020

47271 said:
But if a Scotrail intercity service conveys no First Class accommodation due to the train type, where is there for the off duty staff to sit?

The live haggis transportation cabinet?

Azzy49 said:
never know why.

Flexibility

92002 · 17 Dec 2020

Azzy49 said:
That's got me thinking, will the first 5 Coach HST enter Service around the May timetable change? With more 5 sets than 4 when I first heard of that I was more surprised that the first set was a 4 coach set. Wish that was the new Livery for EMU's and DMU's as the Blue Livery is now 11 years old. I still remember getting on 170434 at Dundee for the first time when the current Livery was new and when 434 was the first in that livery... back in 2009 where it was freshly painted.

Me and my mum I remember always got a Scotrail Barbie 170 to Aberdeen but because she hadn't seen the current Livery before when it just rolled out on 434 she asked one of the Station staff if it were going to Aberdeen which it was. One time I recall getting a GNER set.

Wish Scotrail did 9 carriage sets I know that's a dream. Can imagine how big of an extension you'd need on the end Platforms at Dundee to accommodate that. I've always wished they'd transform the Dundee rail yard bit (where they keep the spare Trains) into a Station extension so we could atleast have 7 platforms instead of 4. Would be nice to have a few other Terminus Platforms especially for LNER. Seen sometimes some Aberdeen Services going to Aberdeen the wrong platform seen some Hsts do that too but never know why.

Can't see the first 5 coach set starting in May. There were 26 sets at 4 cars. 1 was written off at Carmont. The last set of the 4 car sets is still to get delivered. Then they move on to the extra coaches for the 17x5 car sets.
Whether they carry on with another set first to replace the one written off or go for the extra coaches. They will need to me delivered them at 4 or 5 at a time. So it's unlikely the first few sets will make it in May.
Quite a few of the sets delivered have not yet entered traffic with training delays due to covid. Although I heard the other day it had started this week.

Would think the first possible date for a 5 car set would be around July. There was talk of all sets eventually going to 5 cars, But no order placed so far.

CEN60 · 17 Dec 2020

92002 said:
Can't see the first 5 coach set starting in May. There were 26 sets at 4 cars. 1 was written off at Carmont. The last set of the 4 car sets is still to get delivered. Then they move on to the extra coaches for the 17x5 car sets.
Whether they carry on with another set first to replace the one written off or go for the extra coaches. They will need to me delivered them at 4 or 5 at a time. So it's unlikely the first few sets will make it in May.
Quite a few of the sets delivered have not yet entered traffic with training delays due to covid. Although I heard the other day it had started this week.

Would think the first possible date for a 5 car set would be around July. There was talk of all sets eventually going to 5 cars, But no order placed so far.

FYI - Alex Hynes did a presentation to the Permanent Way Institution (Glasgow) last evening - he indicated that they would run a set down (not replacing the Carmont set) and as you say above that 17 5 Car sets are planned - but did not give a timeframe. He also said that currently they only have around 11-13 sets a day in service due to the reduced / altered timetable. He also indicated that driver training has been a challenge - separation in an HST cab almost impossible.

43096 · 17 Dec 2020

92002 said:
Can't see the first 5 coach set starting in May. There were 26 sets at 4 cars. 1 was written off at Carmont. The last set of the 4 car sets is still to get delivered. Then they move on to the extra coaches for the 17x5 car sets.
Whether they carry on with another set first to replace the one written off or go for the extra coaches. They will need to me delivered them at 4 or 5 at a time. So it's unlikely the first few sets will make it in May.
Quite a few of the sets delivered have not yet entered traffic with training delays due to covid. Although I heard the other day it had started this week.

Would think the first possible date for a 5 car set would be around July. There was talk of all sets eventually going to 5 cars, But no order placed so far.

How are you working that out? If a replacement for HA22 is required it will be some way off being done - they need to find some vehicles first (not many left).

The extra 17 TS for the 5-car sets are at Wabtec, so delivery should follow on from HA19. At current rate of delivery of around 4 vehicles per month, end of April for delivery completion looks feasible.

92002 · 17 Dec 2020

43096 said:
How are you working that out? If a replacement for HA22 is required it will be some way off being done - they need to find some vehicles first (not many left).

The extra 17 TS for the 5-car sets are at Wabtec, so delivery should follow on from HA19. At current rate of delivery of around 4 vehicles per month, end of April for delivery completion looks feasible.

Says above that the written off set is not being replaced. The extra coaches will be delivered after the last set has been delivered. It wouldn't be very clever to deliver them one at a time. So probably at 4 or 5 at a time with a loco. There's currently not a lot of secure space to store the sets. Till the new depot at Cadder opens.

Truth be known they could reform delivered sets into 5 car sets and wait for more. That's probably not a solution being condidered though.

InvHst · 17 Dec 2020

Once cadder opens the 3 at slateford currently will move their for service usage as they are in better condition than the older sets. Cadder opens up a heck of a lot of potential and availability of hst sets the the current diagrams valid from Monday are very much altered currently due to cadder not being operational yet

Steven_G · 17 Dec 2020

InvHst said:
Once cadder opens the 3 at slateford currently will move their for service usage as they are in better condition than the older sets. Cadder opens up a heck of a lot of potential and availability of hst sets the the current diagrams valid from Monday are very much altered currently due to cadder not being operational yet

What's the timescales for Cadder? Do we know?

CEN60 · 17 Dec 2020

Steven_G said:
What's the timescales for Cadder? Do we know?

Some of the S&C units went in last weekend - but I have no idea of the time to complete - as an aside - NR are moving their Rail Alliance Team into new buildings planned on the site also.

92002 · 17 Dec 2020

The line is closed over Christmas and New Year for work at Cadder. So probably the majority of work then.

After that they need to remove the EGIP Electrification left over materials to a new site. Presumably to the East Kilbride direction which probably will be the next one up.

59CosG95 · 17 Dec 2020

92002 said:
The line is closed over Christmas and New Year for work at Cadder. So probably the majority of work then.

After that they need to remove the EGIP Electrification left over materials to a new site. Presumably to the East Kilbride direction which probably will be the next one up.

That of course depends on what specific material types are left at Cadder, and what of those (if any) are allocated for installation on the EK/Barrhead scheme.

fgwrich · 17 Dec 2020

92002 said:
Says above that the written off set is not being replaced. The extra coaches will be delivered after the last set has been delivered. It wouldn't be very clever to deliver them one at a time. So probably at 4 or 5 at a time with a loco. There's currently not a lot of secure space to store the sets. Till the new depot at Cadder opens.

Truth be known they could reform delivered sets into 5 car sets and wait for more. That's probably not a solution being condidered though.

Next (final set) IS due to be delivered as a 5 car set, as it will be used for testing while it's at Doncaster. As mentioned by @43096 All 17 vehicles are at Doncaster undergoing conversion. As for bolstering the sets to 5 car, they can either haul them up or send a set down to Doncaster (based around maintenance / overhaul cycles) and take the opportunity to do it there and then.

47444 · 17 Dec 2020

fgwrich said:
All 17 vehicles are at Doncaster undergoing conversion. As for bolstering the sets to 5 car, they can either haul them up or send a set down to Doncaster (based around maintenance / overhaul cycles) and take the opportunity to do it there and then.

So how many unconverted HST vehicles are there in Scotland (at e.g. Slateford, Perth, Dundee) and which ones are they?

fgwrich · 17 Dec 2020

47444 said:
So how many unconverted HST vehicles are there in Scotland (at e.g. Slateford, Perth, Dundee) and which ones are they?

There's two rakes of stored "classic" vehicles at Dundee (which includes 46010) though I cant remember the numbers of the rest of them. But they are ScotRail's spares vehicles and wont be heading to Doncaster. They've got everything they need.

47444 · 17 Dec 2020

fgwrich said:
There's two rakes of stored "classic" vehicles at Dundee (which includes 46010) though I cant remember the numbers of the rest of them. But they are ScotRail's spares vehicles and wont be heading to Doncaster. They've got everything they need.

Thank you.

I understand that they are not going to Doncaster, I am trying to keep up to date with which HST vehicles are in use or stored where.

43096 · 17 Dec 2020

47444 said:
Thank you.

I understand that they are not going to Doncaster, I am trying to keep up to date with which HST vehicles are in use or stored where.

The eight vehicles are: 41126, 42069/118/261/344, 44023/030, 46010.

They are owned by ScotRail; the live fleet is all owned by Angel - ownership of these eight transferred a while back.

hexagon789 · 17 Dec 2020

fgwrich said:
There's two rakes of stored "classic" vehicles at Dundee (which includes 46010) though I cant remember the numbers of the rest of them. But they are ScotRail's spares vehicles and wont be heading to Doncaster. They've got everything they need.

Assuming they are HA31 and HA32 the trailers are:

41126

42344

42261

44030

46010

42069

42118

44023

47444 · 17 Dec 2020

hexagon789 said:
Assuming they are HA31 and HA32 the trailers are:

41126 42344 42261 44030

46010 42069 42118 44023

Thank you both

Azzy49 · 17 Dec 2020

marks87 said:
Why would Dundee need additional terminus capacity for LNER?

And indeed, why would ScotRail running 9-car HSTs require an extension to the existing terminus platforms? Few if any “Inter7City” services terminate there.

There’s also no “wrong” platform for trains to/from Aberdeen. Both through platforms are bi-directionally signalled. While it’s true that 1 is normally southbound and 4 northbound, it’s not all that uncommon for them to “swap”.

It was just a thought for an additional Terminus for LNER, also as for the 9 Carriage sets for Scotrail they would need an extension as the end terminus Platforms would need extended as a 4 Car set is probably the longest Train I've seen so far sat at one.

92002 · 17 Dec 2020

59CosG95 said:
That of course depends on what specific material types are left at Cadder, and what of those (if any) are allocated for installation on the EK/Barrhead scheme.

Usual sort of electrification materials, like masts, cantilevers wire and ancillary bits and pieces. Which can be used on the next project.

InvHst · 17 Dec 2020

Personally think we will see cadder operational by mid January going by these works upcoming

scotraildriver · 17 Dec 2020

Driver training started this week. Date for phase 1 opening is 31st January.

ajrm · 17 Dec 2020

Azzy49 said:
It was just a thought for an additional Terminus for LNER, also as for the 9 Carriage sets for Scotrail they would need an extension as the end terminus Platforms would need extended as a 4 Car set is probably the longest Train I've seen so far sat at one.

You can fit a lot more than that in the bays at Dundee, especially platform 2 which is the longer at 198m.

Azzy49 · 18 Dec 2020

ajrm said:
You can fit a lot more than that in the bays at Dundee, especially platform 2 which is the longer at 198m.

Really? How big a HST or any other? I just Remembered when a Scotrail 156 visited Dundee with a class 158 in 2010 I think, the first 156 there in years. Wish it was a regular thing again but hey... where is Cadder?

najaB · 18 Dec 2020

Azzy49 said:
How big a HST or any other?

Anything up to 198m. The Royal Scotsman fits in 3 and that's six (seven?) carriages, plus locomotive.

hexagon789 · 18 Dec 2020

They used to terminate the odd HST in the through service at Dundee, there was a KGX-DEE and rtn HST in 1985 which terminated in I believe platform 1 then returned south.

Can trains still be turned back normally in the through service or is this not longer possible?

Just a thought as the through platforms can most definitely take a full length HST!

Azzy49 · 18 Dec 2020

hexagon789 said:
They used to terminate the odd HST in the through service at Dundee, there was a KGX-DEE and rtn HST in 1985 which terminated in I believe platform 1 then returned south.

Can trains still be turned back normally in the through service or is this not longer possible?

Just a thought as the through platforms can most definitely take a full length HST!

Wow interesting! Yep them Platforms can. I was talking about the end platforms the terminus ones. I still think it's amazing that Platform 20 etc (the through Platforms in Edinburgh Waverly) can accomdate two full length HSTs

Roger B · 18 Dec 2020

Azzy49 said:
Wow interesting! Yep them Platforms can. I was talking about the end platforms the terminus ones. I still think it's amazing that Platform 20 etc (the through Platforms in Edinburgh Waverly) can accomdate two full length HSTs

You want to see Colchester!

najaB · 18 Dec 2020

hexagon789 said:
Can trains still be turned back normally in the through service or is this not longer possible?

Yes, they definitely can be.

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member