Is there any news regarding a Class 483 train being preserved?

Journeyman · 2 Jan 2021

WesternLancer said:
Thanks - fair points, and if as @Journeyman says the conversions were not that hard to do it makes sense. Just shows that subsequent post privatization lack of renewals up to now must have been down to DfT indecision and lack of desire to invest in what might have been simple renewals then, eg a batch of hand me down 1959 stock for example.

When the 38 Stock was originally obtained, it was actually a possibility to use 59 Stock for replacement when it was available, but there was concern about corrosion at the point where the steel underframes meet the aluminium body, as problems could cause at the join when exposed to salt water. Also, as the rewiring done on the 38s was rather more thorough than originally intended, they were considered good for a few more years than originally planned.

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WesternLancer · 2 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
When the 38 Stock was originally obtained, it was actually a possibility to use 59 Stock for replacement when it was available, but there was concern about corrosion at the point where the steel underframes meet the aluminium body, as problems could cause at the join when exposed to salt water. Also, as the rewiring done on the 38s was rather more thorough than originally intended, they were considered good for a few more years than originally planned.

Thanks - interesting

Journeyman · 2 Jan 2021

WesternLancer said:
Thanks - interesting

A lot of this stuff is in Tube Trains on the Isle of Wight by Brian Hardy. It's quite an old book now, but it's got a lot of interesting detail in it.

lttgroup · 3 Jan 2021

As someone who set up a group to preserve one of the 483s, obviously I love them and think they're glorious. But the time has come - It came a long time ago really and whilst from an enthusiast's and preservationist's perspective I'm glad that they have lasted this long it is best for the Island that they get replaced. As Journeyman has pointed out, the current service is unacceptable in this day and age - The bouncing may be tolerable, or even fun, for some visitors but I can't imagine it being at all pleasant over the course of days, weeks, months and years of commuting.

I am not a fan of the 484s, personally. They do nothing for me as an enthusiast and are soul-less compared to the '38 stock, but they're needed. Provided they can be any more reliable, which is yet to be truly seen.

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

lttgroup said:
As someone who set up a group to preserve one of the 483s, obviously I love them and think they're glorious. But the time has come - It came a long time ago really and whilst from an enthusiast's and preservationist's perspective I'm glad that they have lasted this long it is best for the Island that they get replaced. As Journeyman has pointed out, the current service is unacceptable in this day and age - The bouncing may be tolerable, or even fun, for some visitors but I can't imagine it being at all pleasant over the course of days, weeks, months and years of commuting.

I am not a fan of the 484s, personally. They do nothing for me as an enthusiast and are soul-less compared to the '38 stock, but they're needed. Provided they can be any more reliable, which is yet to be truly seen.

Yeah, we have to be realistic - Island Line has been very badly neglected for decades, and the current service is utterly useless for most locals, however much fun it is for us cranks.

I'm still looking forward to trying out the 484s. I'm quite sentimental about the D Stock as I remember it entering service when I was a kid, and I think it'll still be sufficiently different to most things on the mainland to make a train trip on the island a novel experience. For the long-suffering regular users of the railway, the upgrade brings a better timetable and much more space and comfort on board. Objectively speaking, whether we like it or not, these are going to be the best trains the Island has ever had, and that's something to celebrate.

Cowley · 3 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
Yeah, we have to be realistic - Island Line has been very badly neglected for decades, and the current service is utterly useless for most locals, however much fun it is for us cranks.

I'm still looking forward to trying out the 484s. I'm quite sentimental about the D Stock as I remember it entering service when I was a kid, and I think it'll still be sufficiently different to most things on the mainland to make a train trip on the island a novel experience. For the long-suffering regular users of the railway, the upgrade brings a better timetable and much more space and comfort on board. Objectively speaking, whether we like it or not, these are going to be the best trains the Island has ever had, and that's something to celebrate.

I do agree with you there. The most important thing here is making sure that the island has a reliable service in the future to protect what remains.
I’m really hoping that these units enter service and are extremely successful. Looking pretty good so far hopefully.

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

Cowley said:
I do agree with you there. The most important thing here is making sure that the island has a reliable service in the future to protect what remains.
I’m really hoping that these units enter service and are extremely successful. Looking pretty good so far hopefully.

It's actually nothing short of a miracle that the service has survived to this point. I live in Scotland so a trip to the island is quite a major undertaking, but I was there over New Year 2019/20 with my son. We were keen to go sooner rather than later, as I was convinced the last trains in working order would terminally conk out before their official withdrawal date. Although they've managed to keep things just about going, the amount of cancellations and days with either one or no trains operating has gone through the roof, and that can't carry on. The 483s have been falling to pieces for years, the track was a mess, the passing loops were in the wrong places...the list goes on. Major failures have generally been dealt with by trying to cope without whatever has failed! That technique can only go so far.

I'm glad I took my trip when I did, as obviously COVID followed, and made a trip later on impossible. I'll miss the old feel of the line, but complaining about the new stock "lacking character" is a bit ridiculous. What is the railway actually for, and can we seriously expect the current fleet to limp on any longer? There's only so many miracles you can work with stuff this old.

WesternLancer · 3 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
It's actually nothing short of a miracle that the service has survived to this point. ..... There's only so many miracles you can work with stuff this old.

Yes, quite rightly time to hand over to the miracle workers in the preservation movement! I'm sure they will do a great job too.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

WesternLancer said:
Yes, quite rightly time to hand over to the miracle workers in the preservation movement! I'm sure they will do a great job too.

I agree. It's great news about 006 and 007 as they have found good homes. I last went in June and 006 was on good form but 008 only had one car in operation with the other full of cables. The engineers have worked miracles in keeping them going, with the attempt to use 007 again after a long period and seemingly a bogie replacement on 006. At least they are being retired to preservation still with some life in them.
I am grateful for the link to the webcam which shows plying 006 a largely deserted railway. Even this morning I considered breaking Covid rules to get there but the practicalities of few crossings and the real possibility of being stranded on the island with no accommodation open was daunting. So 006 will (hopefully) see out its last day without the considerable number of enthusiasts expected. I didn't manage, like many, to go again because of the weekend engineering and regular failures. It was simply too unreliable for the locals to use confidently with lineside issues too.
The D78s should do a good job although they lack the charm. They were a relatively simple, almost austerity design from the 1970s when passenger numbers were falling on the Underground. Hence the single doors. I never really liked them as they saw off the last of the 38's big brother, the COCP stock. They were a successful class although D78' smaller brother the 1983 stock was the least successful ever, some only lasting seven years. The D78s were in better condition upon withdrawal than the Standard or 38 stocks.
So it's sad not to be there today. But given the enormous sacrifices and disappointments people have experienced since March it's a small thing really. At least a visit to the EOR and the IoWSR is something to look forward to.

Paul Hitchcock · 3 Jan 2021

WesternLancer said:
Yes, quite rightly time to hand over to the miracle workers in the preservation movement! I'm sure they will do a great job too.

Nasty rust "surprises" ahoy!

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

Paul Hitchcock said:
Nasty rust "surprises" ahoy!

They're not far off crumbling into dust!

hermit · 3 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
It's actually nothing short of a miracle that the service has survived to this point. I live in Scotland so a trip to the island is quite a major undertaking, but I was there over New Year 2019/20 with my son. We were keen to go sooner rather than later, as I was convinced the last trains in working order would terminally conk out before their official withdrawal date. Although they've managed to keep things just about going, the amount of cancellations and days with either one or no trains operating has gone through the roof, and that can't carry on. The 483s have been falling to pieces for years, the track was a mess, the passing loops were in the wrong places...the list goes on. Major failures have generally been dealt with by trying to cope without whatever has failed! That technique can only go so far.

I'm glad I took my trip when I did, as obviously COVID followed, and made a trip later on impossible. I'll miss the old feel of the line, but complaining about the new stock "lacking character" is a bit ridiculous. What is the railway actually for, and can we seriously expect the current fleet to limp on any longer? There's only so many miracles you can work with stuff this old.

I agree. I remember SWR telling us nearly 20 years ago that the stock could not survive longer than 2007, absolute max. So miracles have been worked.

But let’s not downplay the actual performance. The trains only starting failing a couple of years ago. Until then their reliability was exemplary, and Island Line always topped the national performance tables. The only serious delay I remember suffering was when some local lads threw a bike on the line.

And the problems caused by the 20/40 minute service intervals were eased when Wightlink tweaked their catamaran timetable so that it was no longer exactly half-hourly. Connections to and from the cat could still be hairy, but were maintained pretty reliably except when weather in the Solent caused delays.

So for all its quirks and eccentricities the line served us well.

D365 · 3 Jan 2021

lttgroup said:
I am not a fan of the 484s, personally. They do nothing for me as an enthusiast and are soul-less compared to the '38 stock, but they're needed. Provided they can be any more reliable, which is yet to be truly seen.

I don't doubt they will be reliable. The Achilles heel of the Bedford-Bletchley 230s is the engines, which won't be an issue on IoW.

43096 · 3 Jan 2021

hermit said:
But let’s not downplay the actual performance. The trains only starting failing a couple of years ago. Until then their reliability was exemplary, and Island Line always topped the national performance tables. The only serious delay I remember suffering was when some local lads threw a bike on the line.

Much like the rest of the SWR fleet. The scorched earth fleet maintenance policy of WorstGroup.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

It was always a source of great pride that the oldest fleet topped the reliability list for so many years.
It just goes to show how things changed just in the last couple of years as spares dwindled.

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

43096 said:
Much like the rest of the SWR fleet. The scorched earth fleet maintenance policy of WorstGroup.

Oh, come on. It's got far more to do with the trains being 80 years old than anything else. SWT were concerned about how long they'd last twenty years ago! This was always going to happen, however much money and TLC you throw at the problem.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

43096 said:
Much like the rest of the SWR fleet. The scorched earth fleet maintenance policy of WorstGroup.

Yes but they retired some of the HST fleet in very good order to new operators, even if 43096 is currently stored.

bramling · 3 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
Oh, come on. It's got far more to do with the trains being 80 years old than anything else. SWT were concerned about how long they'd last twenty years ago! This was always going to happen, however much money and TLC you throw at the problem.

We shall probably never know the answer. Must admit though it does outwardly seem a bit of a coincidence that reliability seems to have dropped well and truly off the cliff from around the time First took over.

I think the reality is things had been on the decline for a while though, as evidenced by the number of units which have fallen by the wayside over the years, and the eventual complete elimination of 4-car running. Eventually that could no longer be sustained as they ran out of units to sideline, with the remaining operational units then having no slack.

43096 · 3 Jan 2021

1938stock said:
Yes but they retired some of the HST fleet in very good order to new operators, even if 43096 is currently stored.

In very good order? Ask Wabtec about the state of the vehicles they've overhauled for ScotRail.

Not sure what 43096 has got to do with it.

D365 · 3 Jan 2021

bramling said:
We shall probably never know the answer. Must admit though it does outwardly seem a bit of a coincidence that reliability seems to have dropped well and truly off the cliff from around the time First took over.

I think the reality is things had been on the decline for a while though, as evidenced by the number of units which have fallen by the wayside over the years, and the eventual complete elimination of 4-car running. Eventually that could no longer be sustained as they ran out of units to sideline, with the remaining operational units then having no slack.

I think your second paragraph is indeed far more realistic. The timing of 007's overhaul having finished appears to have been incredibly fortunate.

43096 said:
In very good order? Ask Wabtec about the state of the vehicles they've overhauled for ScotRail.

Not sure what 43096 has got to do with it.

How about the ex-LNER HSTs for EMR? Surely it's not just a First Group issue.

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

D365 said:
I think your second paragraph is indeed far more realistic. The timing of 007's overhaul having finished appears to have been incredibly fortunate.

Yeah, there's been a very limited supply of spare parts, and they happen to have run out in the last couple of years. It's been nothing short of a miracle that they've managed to carry on as long as they have. Remember these are just about the oldest trains to have ever operated in the UK, and are significantly older than the Standard Stock trains were when they were withdrawn.

Bedpan · 3 Jan 2021

DelW said:
Mostly I visit by train, a through ticket onto Island Line is quite reasonably priced (especially with a railcard) and the Island has a pretty comprehensive bus service.
I did take my car over a couple of years ago, when we'd rented a cottage for a few days, and we were able to book the ferry via the cottage agency quite a bit cheaper than directly on the Wightlink website. IIRC it was about £60 return for a Focus and two people via Lymington and 2222

I had a quick meddle with a booking site and even at this time of year there was hardly anything under £100 return. I don't think that I'd mind paying £60ish if we were going to spend say a week there but not necessarily if it was going t be a two night visit. I'd love to visit the island but there are many other places that we like going to too, without having the extra cost. That said, now that we have bus passes, now (post virus) might be the time to visiy=t without a car and use the bus, assuming that there is a reasonable service to all parts. I suppose alternatively hiring a car for a couple for days could be more economical. As long as I can drag the wife onto a 484., see a 483 and hopefully ride on one on the IOWSR, and also ride in an 02 (or even Ivatt) train of vintage carriages.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

43096 said:
In very good order? Ask Wabtec about the state of the vehicles they've overhauled for ScotRail.

Not sure what 43096 has got to do with it.

Assumed that was why you were called 43096. It was a FGW machine.

D365 said:
I think your second paragraph is indeed far more realistic. The timing of 007's overhaul having finished appears to have been incredibly fortunate.

How about the ex-LNER HSTs for EMR? Surely it's not just a First Group issue.

I agree that it's not just a First Group issue although I have always thought that they are a terrible organisation in so many ways and as a busman I was involved in several successful battles with them over the years. Of course repurposing old stock will have its difficulties.
Piers Connor's excellent book about the 1938 stock devotes a chapter about the five trains of 1938 stock which were brought back into service in the 1980s on the Northern Line and whose driving cars went on to form the 483s. Some LU management were against it because of the wiring issues, preferring a shortage of trains.

bramling said:
We shall probably never know the answer. Must admit though it does outwardly seem a bit of a coincidence that reliability seems to have dropped well and truly off the cliff from around the time First took over.

I think the reality is things had been on the decline for a while though, as evidenced by the number of units which have fallen by the wayside over the years, and the eventual complete elimination of 4-car running. Eventually that could no longer be sustained as they ran out of units to sideline, with the remaining operational units then having no slack.

I agree. When I went in the summer there was hardly anyone travelling but had this been a normal year a one train service on a summer Saturday, even allowing for the decline in passenger levels over the years, would have been difficult. In a strange way the lack of demand caused by Covid helped the service to carry on until today.

D365 · 3 Jan 2021

1938stock said:
Piers Connor's excellent book about the 1938 stock devotes a chapter about the five trains of 1938 stock which were brought back into service in the 1980s on the Northern Line and whose driving cars went on to form the 483s. Some LU management were against it because of the wiring issues, preferring a shortage of trains.

Sounds like Ryde have done a brilliant job in that case.

WesternLancer · 3 Jan 2021

1938stock said:
I agree. It's great news about 006 and 007 as they have found good homes. I last went in June and 006 was on good form but 008 only had one car in operation with the other full of cables. The engineers have worked miracles in keeping them going, with the attempt to use 007 again after a long period and seemingly a bogie replacement on 006. At least they are being retired to preservation still with some life in them.
I am grateful for the link to the webcam which shows plying 006 a largely deserted railway. Even this morning I considered breaking Covid rules to get there but the practicalities of few crossings and the real possibility of being stranded on the island with no accommodation open was daunting. So 006 will (hopefully) see out its last day without the considerable number of enthusiasts expected. I didn't manage, like many, to go again because of the weekend engineering and regular failures. It was simply too unreliable for the locals to use confidently with lineside issues too.
The D78s should do a good job although they lack the charm. They were a relatively simple, almost austerity design from the 1970s when passenger numbers were falling on the Underground. Hence the single doors. I never really liked them as they saw off the last of the 38's big brother, the COCP stock. They were a successful class although D78' smaller brother the 1983 stock was the least successful ever, some only lasting seven years. The D78s were in better condition upon withdrawal than the Standard or 38 stocks.
So it's sad not to be there today. But given the enormous sacrifices and disappointments people have experienced since March it's a small thing really. At least a visit to the EOR and the IoWSR is something to look forward to.

Thanks, yes I agree. Of course I regret now not taking the chance to go in the summer when the rules would have permitted it, but there we are.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

WesternLancer said:
Thanks, yes I agree. Of course I regret now not taking the chance to go in the summer when the rules would have permitted it, but there we are.

Yes me too. But even the 80 miles from Somerset seemed a little to far in the autumn with so many days of service disruption at the end.

lttgroup · 3 Jan 2021

Journeyman said:
Yeah, there's been a very limited supply of spare parts, and they happen to have run out in the last couple of years. It's been nothing short of a miracle that they've managed to carry on as long as they have. Remember these are just about the oldest trains to have ever operated in the UK, and are significantly older than the Standard Stock trains were when they were withdrawn.

I think pretty much the only thing I can think of that beats them are the oldest of the LBSCR Terriers (92 upon withdrawal) and some industrial machines.

43096 · 3 Jan 2021

1938stock said:
Assumed that was why you were called 43096. It was a FGW machine.

You might want to go and do some research!

43096 was never an FGW machine - always GNER/NXEC/East Coast/VTEC/LNER until it moved to EMR at the start of last year. That it became 43296 ought to be a further clue. It's never been allocated to a Western Region depot in its entire life.

1938stock · 3 Jan 2021

43096 said:
You might want to go and do some research!

43096 was never an FGW machine - always GNER/NXEC/East Coast/VTEC/LNER until it moved to EMR at the start of last year. That it became 43296 ought to be a further clue. It's never been allocated to a Western Region depot in its entire life.

Ok fine but still now stored...whoever looked after it. So what happened to the old year, the one in which we were supposed to be more courteous and understanding towards each other..... and celebrate in this new year the incredible achievement of the 483s. You've managed to turn what should be an historic day into an argument in an empty room!

lttgroup said:
I think pretty much the only thing I can think of that beats them are the oldest of the LBSCR Terriers (92 upon withdrawal) and some industrial machines.

Didn't the original Glasgow subway cars do 81 years?

Journeyman · 3 Jan 2021

1938stock said:
Didn't the original Glasgow subway cars do 81 years?

Yes, but only spent half that time as electric trains, so the traction equipment had a fairly typical lifespan.

Is there any news regarding a Class 483 train being preserved?

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