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Caledonian Sleeper

Clansman

Clansman

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Andrew1395 said:
Would it have been better to put the sleepers into the West Coast franchise. Recreating the synergy that existed in pre 1996 Inter City?
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ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper are both subsidised by, and are responsibilities of the Scottish Government. Transferring the franchise into the West Coast one would cost more money and be more politically and logistically hassling than it's worth. I don't really see a benefit to transferring it to the West Coast franchise, not least for the DfT who'd be faced with another couple million quid to dig out each year in subsidies.

Merging it with ScotRail would make operational sense, however as has already been pointed out, creating a franchise out of the Sleeper has encouraged greater investment to reform the service's offering (well, as it was planned to be!).

47271 said:
Oh well. I had a fond idea that they'd have made the effort to come up with a solution to the knocking bogies...
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Can only hope this happens at some point. Interestingly others pointed out that the issues with the bogies will go away once the Mk5s have been well boded into full service. Though as we know it's been over a year and a half with no change, so not sure how that will pan out!
 
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Bletchleyite

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Andrew1395 said:
Would it have been better to put the sleepers into the West Coast franchise. Recreating the synergy that existed in pre 1996 Inter City?
Click to expand...

I might be wrong, but I'm almost certain that they actually were part of the ICWC shadow franchise, and were operated by ScotRail as a subcontract of some sort. I don't know if Virgin Trains was ever responsible for them, though, or if it ended with the actual franchising.
 
PG

PG

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47271 said:
And given their cleaning standards, likely to be ones that have already been worn by another passenger...
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O/T but that reminds me of the tale told to me at a hospital I once worked at. Patients all came down with something every couple of weeks, no-one able to figure out the cause. Kept happening even with new patients. Eventually traced to a cleaner putting mop heads through the dishwasher overnight which also then 'cleaned' the water jugs the next morning!
 
A

Andrew1395

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Clansman said:
ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper are both subsidised by, and are responsibilities of the Scottish Government. Transferring the franchise into the West Coast one would cost more money and be more politically and logistically hassling than it's worth. I don't really see a benefit to transferring it to the West Coast franchise, not least for the DfT who'd be faced with another couple million quid to dig out each year in subsidies.

Merging it with ScotRail would make operational sense, however as has already been pointed out, creating a franchise out of the Sleeper has encouraged greater investment to reform the service's offering (well, as it was planned to be!).


Can only hope this happens at some point. Interestingly others pointed out that the issues with the bogies will go away once the Mk5s have been well boded into full service. Though as we know it's been over a year and a half with no change, so not sure how that will pan out!
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about customers than the subtlety of which part of the UK state subsidised the thing. Ultimately all the subsidy comes out of UK GDP. I have to say I don’t actually understand separating out train operators by time of the day. London to Manchester after 23.00 subsidised by transport for Manchester would not change my view. London to Glasgow/Edinburgh having three core products standard seats, first class seats and overnights berths seems like a job for one operator to me. The trains (at least at the London end) share the operating infrastructure.

A single marketing and product responsibility seems sensible to me. After all the sleeper market is actually driven by London, not Scotland. If it was Scotland, then there would sleeper trains from Scotland to other English/Welsh destinations.
 
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Bald Rick

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Andrew1395 said:
Would it have been better to put the sleepers into the West Coast franchise. Recreating the synergy that existed in pre 1996 Inter City?
Click to expand...

It made sense to be in ICWC when there were more sleeper services, and everything was coaching stock and loco hauled.

Less so when the Pendolinos were ordered, and certainly not politically for the Scots.
 
A

Andrew1395

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I expect the unique trains and their lack of utility for most of the day is the reason why you subsidise them. But say Virgin as ICWC franchisee, could have used their train maintenance, guards and bought in loco and drivers from one of the London centric freight operators like freightliner.

viirgin marketing and retailing would have been a marginal cost for the sleeper product.

I don’t understand the political point. After all the Scots seem to accept travelling in virgin West Coast and GNER/East Coast for day trains. And the Sleeper trains basically only take you to the heart of the evil empire.
 
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GLC

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Andrew1395 said:
I expect the unique trains and their lack of utility for most of the day is the reason why you subsidise them
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Not that it would ever be practical (or sell very well!), but I like the idea of the sleeper coaches running during the day, to offer passenger private suites, much like the first class suites you can get on certain airlines :D
 
marks87

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47271 said:
And given their cleaning standards, likely to be ones that have already been worn by another passenger...
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You jest (at least in part, I assume) but I did indeed find loose ear plugs in the “welcome bag” on my first trip on the Mk5s 18 months ago...
 
cakefiend

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marks87 said:
You jest (at least in part, I assume) but I did indeed find loose ear plugs in the “welcome bag” on my first trip on the Mk5s 18 months ago...
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And I found them in the little shelf beside my head on a Mk5 as well.
 
47271

47271

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Andrew1395 said:
I don’t understand the political point. After all the Scots seem to accept travelling in virgin West Coast and GNER/East Coast for day trains. And the Sleeper trains basically only take you to the heart of the evil empir
Click to expand...

I think that this is the political point, but I'm trying to make it in a factual rather than a hostile political way!

Speaking as a resident of the Highlands, my understanding of the value of the Scottish Government operating subsidy of the sleeper is that it readily connects people like myself with London. The decision to underwrite that connection between a small population in a relatively remote part of Scotland is a legitimate item of transport expenditure for the devolved administration but not for UK Government. On that basis the devolved administration is entitled to run the service in any way it wishes.
 
A

Andrew1395

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Too subtle for me that. People in the West Highlands are subsidised by the Scottish Parliament to get to London, as an expression of political self determination. But people from Motherwell are Subsidised by the UK DfT to get the train to London.

On that logic there would be a Scottish Mail service for first class letter mail from the West Highlands to London subsidised by Scotland, and a Royal Mail 1st class letter mail service from Motherwell subsidised by the UK requirement for a national letter tariff. With cross subsidy from one flow of profitable letters to the unprofitable.

Anyway let’s hope that both countries are able to grow GDP sufficiently to make the trains viable. Unlike Stranraer, Holyhead, Stirling, Barrow, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle sleeper trains.

As an aside I wonder if transferring the services to the East Coast, improving connectivity from the further parts of Scotlandto New asthenosphere the way to London, would improve the economics. I am ignorant on the economic connectivity between Scotland and Newcastle. But it is of course the nearest city region of England to Scotland. And you would expect it’s economy to benefit from any future Independent Scotland.
 
A

alangla

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marks87 said:
You jest (at least in part, I assume) but I did indeed find loose ear plugs in the “welcome bag” on my first trip on the Mk5s 18 months ago...
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There were ear plugs given out on the Mk3s under Serco as well. The First ScotRail welcome bag was a lot more comprehensive (and the ticket included a basic breakfast!) than the Serco one IIRC
 
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route101

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alangla said:
There were ear plugs given out on the Mk3s under Serco as well. The First ScotRail welcome bag was a lot more comprehensive (and the ticket included a basic breakfast!) than the Serco one IIRC
Click to expand...

Last time I was in Berth, MK3 in early 2019 there was just an eyemask, no bag of goodies, is that just for First Class now?

In seated in late 2019, service was late into London, so they gave everyone a biscuit and apple/orange juice. The juices were at room temperature!
 
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Gonzoiku

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Yesterday's up Highlander cancelled?
No explanation that I can see, was it related to the problems experienced by a Glasgow-Inverness service during the evening, I wonder.
GZ
 
47271

47271

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Andrew1395 said:
Too subtle for me that. People in the West Highlands are subsidised by the Scottish Parliament to get to London, as an expression of political self determination. But people from Motherwell are Subsidised by the UK DfT to get the train to London.

On that logic there would be a Scottish Mail service for first class letter mail from the West Highlands to London subsidised by Scotland, and a Royal Mail 1st class letter mail service from Motherwell subsidised by the UK requirement for a national letter tariff. With cross subsidy from one flow of profitable letters to the unprofitable.

Anyway let’s hope that both countries are able to grow GDP sufficiently to make the trains viable. Unlike Stranraer, Holyhead, Stirling, Barrow, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle sleeper trains.

As an aside I wonder if transferring the services to the East Coast, improving connectivity from the further parts of Scotlandto New asthenosphere the way to London, would improve the economics. I am ignorant on the economic connectivity between Scotland and Newcastle. But it is of course the nearest city region of England to Scotland. And you would expect it’s economy to benefit from any future Independent Scotland.
Click to expand...
I can make it even more subtle if you like!

What I didn't add is that the new mk5 stock was paid for 50/50 by the Scottish and UK Governments and, to most of us on this forum, it appears that the Scottish Government's main objective in paying the sleeper's operating subsidy since Serco took over in 2015 has been to attract wealthy foreign tourists to the country. Prices have shot up to the exclusion of those for whom the service was originally intended.

Covid has rendered this strategy worthless for the time being, and possibly quite far into the future, of course.
 
185143

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Gonzoiku said:
Yesterday's up Highlander cancelled?
No explanation that I can see, was it related to the problems experienced by a Glasgow-Inverness service during the evening, I wonder.
GZ
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My understanding from Facebook groups is that the Train Manager for the Sleeper was stuck on said Glasgow-Inverness service.
 
6

6Z09

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185143 said:
My understanding from Facebook groups is that the Train Manager for the Sleeper was stuck on said Glasgow-Inverness service.
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I wonder if that is a first for reasons of cancellation, given it's a daily occurrence for the Train Managers to travel north as passengers?
 
A

alangla

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route101 said:
Last time I was in Berth, MK3 in early 2019 there was just an eyemask, no bag of goodies, is that just for First Class now?

In seated in late 2019, service was late into London, so they gave everyone a biscuit and apple/orange juice. The juices were at room temperature!
Click to expand...
Sounds like the goodies have been reduced even more over the last few years. My last trip with Serco was at the end of 2015 (time flies!) and I think all we got was the ear plugs, eye mask and maybe an Arran Aromatics soap?, this was in Standard. I’m just thinking what was in the First gift offering, IIRC, it was 2 bottles of mineral water above the window, a first branded bag with ear plugs, mask, soap and a mini tooth care kit which was a brush, micro sized toothpaste and a tank of pure water in the base and a bagged breakfast which was something like a muffin, cereal bar and your choice of tea/coffee. Fruit juice might have either been in the bag or an alternative to the hot drink. I can’t remember if there was anything else in there. This was again in Standard.

I’ve had a look on EBay and there’s examples of both the First and Spot-Rail first class kits for sale:
Spot-rail (how long did the sleepers carry this branding?): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/First-Sc...-/184585468620?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
First: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...-/383891062433?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
 
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G

Gonzoiku

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185143 said:
My understanding from Facebook groups is that the Train Manager for the Sleeper was stuck on said Glasgow-Inverness service.
Click to expand...

Ah well, I suppose the Delay Repay claim was easy.... Oh, but the journey was on split tickets.....
 
47271

47271

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alangla said:
Spot-rail (how long did the sleepers carry this branding?):
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There was only ever patchy evidence of the current Scotrail brand on the sleepers before Serco took over: small things like lounge carpet replacements, seat upholstery, place mats, and, of course, the grooming kits.

With the exception of a few mk2s and mk3s making it into CS livery, externally they all stayed in First colours and internally cabins were trapped in the era of the National Express refurb right up to the end, fully 15 years after they lost the Scotrail franchise. Cabin carpets were particularly unpleasant.
 
JModulo

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There is ofcourse the return of the branded washbag if you book a double room, with the contents being the same as a club room, just in bigger bottles.
 
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cb a1

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alangla said:
Sounds like the goodies have been reduced even more over the last few years. My last trip with Serco was at the end of 2015 (time flies!) and I think all we got was the ear plugs, eye mask and maybe an Arran Aromatics soap?, this was in Standard. I’m just thinking what was in the First gift offering, IIRC, it was 2 bottles of mineral water above the window, a first branded bag with ear plugs, mask, soap and a mini tooth care kit which was a brush, micro sized toothpaste and a tank of pure water in the base and a bagged breakfast which was something like a muffin, cereal bar and your choice of tea/coffee. Fruit juice might have either been in the bag or an alternative to the hot drink. I can’t remember if there was anything else in there. This was again in Standard.

I’ve had a look on EBay and there’s examples of both the First and Spot-Rail first class kits for sale:
Spot-rail (how long did the sleepers carry this branding?): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/First-Sc...-/184585468620?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
First: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...-/383891062433?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
Click to expand...
Wow. £15 for the Scotrail travel kit. I've got 4 of them in a cupboard. Not sure if they're complete though as they were very useful so if travelling I would raid them for bits and pieces.
 
MrEd

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alangla said:
There were ear plugs given out on the Mk3s under Serco as well. The First ScotRail welcome bag was a lot more comprehensive (and the ticket included a basic breakfast!) than the Serco one IIRC
Click to expand...
When I travelled in Standard Class in the First Group era, I seem to remember the only complimentary items being a bottle of water in the berth and a travel toothbrush with toothpaste (which you could request from the attendant). I think there might also have been a bar of soap and a small hand towel, but I don’t remember.

In the First Group era, the only complimentary items for standard class passengers in the morning (as I remember it) were a cup of tea/coffee and a couple of shortbread fingers, which is similar to what it was with Serco pre-Covid (the current standard class offering in the Covid era is just a bottle of orange juice and a muffin). For a £4 charge, you could order a continental breakfast in a bag, which consisted of a croissant, jam, a bottle of orange juice, a raspberry yoghurt and a fruit selection- this was identical to the one which first class passengers received for free (although theirs was served on a tray with proper cutlery and crockery). First Class also had the option of an airline-style hot breakfast, although this never looked very appetising. That said, my experiences dated to the latter part of the First Group era (2008-15) so it is possible that they were past the point of caring by then!
 
marks87

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Scotrail yesterday were advertising ticket acceptance on the sleeper this morning for travel between Perth and Inverness, due to pre-emptive cancellations.

Did this happen, and if so was the seated coach opened for the purpose?
 
A

ajrm

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Bletchleyite said:
I might be wrong, but I'm almost certain that they actually were part of the ICWC shadow franchise, and were operated by ScotRail as a subcontract of some sort. I don't know if Virgin Trains was ever responsible for them, though, or if it ended with the actual franchising.
Click to expand...

They probably started out in the very early stages of the West Coast shadow franchise but they were transferred to the ScotRail franchise long before either ScotRail or West Coast Trains moved into the private sector.
 
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