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2020 US Presidential Election

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swt_passenger

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Sidney Powell, so off the wall even Trump dumped her. That is quite something.
That’s her. Giuliani has been over the top for months as well, the last highlight on the 6th being his call for “trial by combat”, no doubt that will turn out in (his own) hindsight to have been a slip of the tongue...
 
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jfollows

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I read somewhere Bush and Clinton will be attending. The only other living ex-President is Jimmy Carter, well into his 90s and probably not recommended to stand outside on a January day in the middle of a pandemic. He has declined the invite but sent his good wishes.
And Obama! (Confirmed in an earlier post actually)
 

nlogax

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Don't forget the well-overdue dumping from Twitter of Lin Wood, another of Trump's extended legal team. Established conspiracy theorist lawyer who worked alongside Sidney Powell. After Pence decided to go with constitutional normal norms by not standing in the way of the electoral college certification, Wood called for Mike Pence to be put in front of a firing squad. A comment so unpleasant that even Parler felt they had to delete it.
 

dgl

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and even Parler is now facing issues, app stores dropping the app and Amazon will no longer host their services.
 

Peter Sarf

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All replies to my post were very valid points that I can't really disagree with, but it is the overall picture I'm trying to highlight rather than the minitiae of social media rules - this is just one symptom of the ill that are befalling the US (and about to get worse). It seems social media companies are now systematically deleting accounts linked to right wing supporters of Trump and the Republicans; where is the limit? Along with the mainstream US media gleefully jumping on the bandwagon (watching CNN the other night was quite shocking seeing how openly partisan they were), a huge group of people is getting marginalised very very quickly. And now the Democrats control both houses, they need to wield the power responsibly and be contrite about it, not go down to Trump's level, and calm the situation - but given the rhetoric so far, I can't see that happening.

I guess I've got more insight into this now as I've been angered this past year by the silencing of certain science and other voices in the COVID debate; thus now I can see how policial silencing online and in the regular media is happening, the effects it has on people, and why they are only going to get more angry.

I visited the US in 2016 when I still thought Trump was a joke. I got one of those shared taxi things from the airport in LA, and I was lumped with a few random Americans who seemed pretty standard people (none of whom knew each other). They started talking about politics, and the vehement dislike of the arrogance of the Democrats - personified by Hillary Clinton - was incredibly apparent. It was poisonous hatred. And they all agreed with each other that they were voting for Trump that year. I only personally know two Americans who actually did vote for him (or admitted it anyway) - one is a gay bloke from Chicago, and the other a Venezuelan immigrant living in Florida. Both were outside of the expected Trump/Republican demographic; I've never really spoken to them in detail about why they went for Trump, but overall from looking at their comments online it seemed to be more of a frustration of the Democrats forgetting about huge swathes of the country and automatically assuming that anybody 'sensible' would vote for them. Obama was meant to be a unifying President, but ultimately he mostly ignored middle America, and not only has this continued within the Democrat party, but they are becoming openly disparaging of them.

Shutting these people out is not going to heal any wounds. It's only going to make them angrier, and drive them underground. And history has shown us that this never ends well when they eventually pop up again. To go back to my orginal comment that started this debate, the simple action of banning Trump from his main platform is a downright dangerous precedent to set, and I fear we will be seeing serious ramifications for a while yet.

I was speaking to a couple of senior academics at Yale about this yesterday for a few minutes before a work meeting started (obviously very liberal themselves, not all Republican), but they seemed genuinely concerned about what's going to happen next, and they echoed my views. It was quite telling just how worried they seemed about what's going to happen next - and these are not people given into hyperbole, having worked with them for the last 5 years.

(sorry, just typed this post in a rush as I'm about to head out - hope it makes sense!)
In a nutshell my fear is sort of :- you can push a cork in the top of the bottle and use more and more force to keep it in there but eventually it will pop out. So I agree.

Need to see the GOP take ownership of the problem and re-engage as many disaffected as possible. It will be counterproductive to ignore so many people who have been given false hope and lies. Trump has opened the Pandora's box of false promises and compounded it with lies.
 

edwin_m

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It's to the point that when Trump said there would be smooth transition, some of his supporters were denouncing him! So it's hard to see how anyone could credibly disabuse this group of their false belief. I think the only way forward is for Biden to ensure he addresses the legitimate grievances of this group without pandering to their prejudices. A tall order.
 

43096

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That’s her. Giuliani has been over the top for months as well, the last highlight on the 6th being his call for “trial by combat”, no doubt that will turn out in (his own) hindsight to have been a slip of the tongue...
I suspect Giuliani might well be getting a knock on the door from the FBI for that comment. It will be interesting to see who Trump pardons in the next 10 days (besides himself, obviously).
 

najaB

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Are offences committed within DC automatically federal crimes (and therefore pardonable by Trump)?
Yes. Though, while I'm not an expert by any measure, I have read that if he were to be impeached and removed then any pardon he issued related to the reason for his impeachment would be invalid.
 

takno

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Are offences committed within DC automatically federal crimes (and therefore pardonable by Trump)?
Worth bearing in mind that he can only pardon crimes he knows about before he leaves office. I suspect there's a few attorneys general who've decided that it's worth taking a break for the next couple of weeks and then putting up some surprise charge sheets after the inaugration
 

najaB

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Worth bearing in mind that he can only pardon crimes he knows about before he leaves office.
Is that the case? There has been a lot of talk about him issuing blanket pre-emptive pardons for himself, his children and the nuttiest of the nutters (e.g. Rudi).
 

edwin_m

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Is that the case? There has been a lot of talk about him issuing blanket pre-emptive pardons for himself, his children and the nuttiest of the nutters (e.g. Rudi).
I think the pardon granted to Nixon shows that they can be very wide-ranging, including crimes that may have been committed but aren't known at the time of the pardon.
 

Senex

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I think the pardon granted to Nixon shows that they can be very wide-ranging, including crimes that may have been committed but aren't known at the time of the pardon.
Something that puzzles me about the pardon question. Is a presidential pardon absolute and beyond question, or could a Trump self-pardon (if theoretically possible) be questioned and possibly revoked later either by a decision of Congress or by some form of case brought before the Supreme Court? If not, then it seems that in this aspect at least the presidential power is that of a mediaeval absolute monarch ruling by divine right, and if self-pardon is possible, then it means that in theory any president could do whatever (s)he wanted, right up to mass murder, whilst in office as long as they left time at the end to grant themselves the self-pardon. It sounds a very odd provision for a modern state to have retained in the powers of its head of state.
 

birchesgreen

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Something that puzzles me about the pardon question. Is a presidential pardon absolute and beyond question, or could a Trump self-pardon (if theoretically possible) be questioned and possibly revoked later either by a decision of Congress or by some form of case brought before the Supreme Court? If not, then it seems that in this aspect at least the presidential power is that of a mediaeval absolute monarch ruling by divine right, and if self-pardon is possible, then it means that in theory any president could do whatever (s)he wanted, right up to mass murder, whilst in office as long as they left time at the end to grant themselves the self-pardon. It sounds a very odd provision for a modern state to have retained in the powers of its head of state.
Indeed, if he does do it i suspect there will be a constitutional amendment pretty soon to make sure it can't happen again.
 

dgl

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And the trump supporters app of choice, parler, is now offline. They are looking for other hosts but at the moment no one will touch them.


BBC News said:
Parler has dropped offline after Amazon pulled support for its so-called "free speech" social network.
The platform had been reliant on the tech giant's Amazon Web Services (AWS) cloud computing service to provide its alternative to Twitter.
It is popular among supporters of Donald Trump, although the president is not a user.
Amazon took the action after finding dozens of posts on the service which it said encouraged violence.
Google and Apple had already removed Parler from their app stores towards the end of last week saying it had failed to comply with their content-moderation requirements.
However, it had still been accessible via the web - although visitors had complained of being unable to create new accounts over the weekend, without which it was not possible to view its content.

'All ditched us'
Parler has been online since 2018, and may return if it can find an alternative host.
However, chief executive John Matze told Fox News on Sunday that "every vendor from text message services to email providers to our lawyers all ditched us too".
"We're going to try our best to get back online as quickly as possible, but we're having a lot of trouble because every vendor we talk to says they won't work with us because if Apple doesn't approve and Google doesn't approve, they won't," he added.
AWS's move is the latest in a series of actions affecting social media following the rioting on Capitol Hill last week.

Analysis by Rory Cellan-Jones

Parler has long been a home for what you might call untouchables, people who had been excluded from mainstream services for offences such as blatant racism or incitement to violence.
During a brief excursion onto the site over the weekend, I observed plenty of examples of such behaviour, with users exhibiting vile anti-Semitism, displaying Nazi symbols such as the swastika and uttering incoherent threats against those they perceive to be enemies of America.
But as Amazon's deadline approached something like panic took hold, with users desperately urging their followers to join them on other platforms.
Most seemed to accept that Parler was doomed, while vowing to continue their fight elsewhere.
"Well this is the end," wrote one user, who proclaimed his support for the American Nazi Party.
 

JamesT

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Something that puzzles me about the pardon question. Is a presidential pardon absolute and beyond question, or could a Trump self-pardon (if theoretically possible) be questioned and possibly revoked later either by a decision of Congress or by some form of case brought before the Supreme Court? If not, then it seems that in this aspect at least the presidential power is that of a mediaeval absolute monarch ruling by divine right, and if self-pardon is possible, then it means that in theory any president could do whatever (s)he wanted, right up to mass murder, whilst in office as long as they left time at the end to grant themselves the self-pardon. It sounds a very odd provision for a modern state to have retained in the powers of its head of state.
There doesn't appear to be any process built-in to revoke a pardon. If Trump does attempt to self-pardon, I suspect it would go to the Supreme Court to decide whether that's a valid use of the power or not.
Indeed, if he does do it i suspect there will be a constitutional amendment pretty soon to make sure it can't happen again.
Constitutional amendments are deliberately hard to do. Most of them take years to enact as they need a 2/3rds majority of the states.
 

ainsworth74

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Something that puzzles me about the pardon question. Is a presidential pardon absolute and beyond question, or could a Trump self-pardon (if theoretically possible) be questioned and possibly revoked later either by a decision of Congress or by some form of case brought before the Supreme Court? If not, then it seems that in this aspect at least the presidential power is that of a mediaeval absolute monarch ruling by divine right, and if self-pardon is possible, then it means that in theory any president could do whatever (s)he wanted, right up to mass murder, whilst in office as long as they left time at the end to grant themselves the self-pardon. It sounds a very odd provision for a modern state to have retained in the powers of its head of state.
Well, that's the question isn't it? The Constitution is unhelpfully (or helpfully I suppose depending on your point of view) vague on the matter as it simply says:

...and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

Link

My understanding is that the limit in terms of whether you can pardon yourself has never been tested as no-one else has tried. The only other time it's been close is with Nixon and he didn't try it himself and was pardoned by Ford.

NPR have recently published an interesting article on this subject (and within is some of the argument that you yourself have made above!):

With pressure mounting from all sides, President Trump is reportedly telling aides — once again — that he wants to pardon himself.

Even before he was elected, Trump had a grandiose view of his ability to defy political gravity. In 2016, he gleefully and famously told a campaign rally, "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters."

His lawyers would later argue that same kind of legal immunity in court, and from the early days of his time in office, the power he appeared to relish most was the pardon power. It is near absolute; he need not consult anyone; and early on as the Russia probe began to unfold, Trump was asking aides whether he could pardon himself.

It's a question he has returned to in recent weeks. News organizations, including ABC and The New York Times, have reported that Trump has told advisers he wants to pardon himself, as well as his children and their spouses so that they cannot be investigated and prosecuted for federal crimes.

Were he to do that — especially pardon himself — it would once again put him in uncharted legal territory, with Trump deviating from every other president in believing that he has the power to pardon himself and setting a dangerous precedent for the future.

The president does indeed have broad, but not completely unlimited pardoning power. The Constitution gives him the power to pardon others for federal crimes they may have committed, whether or not they have been charged by the time he leaves office. But he can't pardon himself from impeachment; and he has no authority to pardon anyone for crimes committed under state law. Thus, he has no ability to block the ongoing investigation of his finances in New York.

While some constitutional scholars argue that the pardon power is absolute, most believe a president cannot pardon himself.

To begin with, says Harvard law professor Cass Sunstein, the idea of a pardon stems from the English law idea of mercy or grace, and, he says, it doesn't make sense to show mercy or grace to yourself. Other scholars note that linguistically, you grant a benefit to someone else, not to yourself.

But the most persuasive argument against self-pardons, says Michigan State University law professor Brian Kalt, is that allowing them "would violate the principle that no one can be the judge in their own case."


Indeed, that was the formal legal opinion rendered by the Justice Department in 1974 during the Nixon presidency.

But Trump has openly enjoyed violating long established norms. And pardons have been no exception.

Harvard Law professor Jack Goldsmith has examined all of Trump's pardons and sentence commutations.

"We determined that at least 85 of the 94 have some personal or political connection to Trump and were self-serving in that way," he says.

Goldsmith, who served as head of the Office of Legal Counsel in the George W. Bush Justice Department, notes that pardon controversies are hardly unique. What's new is the "massive extent" to which Trump has circumvented the Justice Department office charged with processing pardon applications.

"Trump loves to exercise the hard powers of the office of the presidency and he especially loves to do so if he think there's something in it for him personally and ... if he thinks it will make the political elites' heads explode," he says.

Until now, no president has pardoned himself. Nixon contemplated it, but faced with his own Justice Department's legal opinion that it would be unconstitutional, he didn't do it. Now, though, there is concern about creating a new precedent.

"If you play this out, a president before leaving the White House, could, for instance, sell the greatest state secrets, the nuclear codes, for billions of dollars, and then pardon himself on the way out the door," says Kenneth Gormley, president of Duquesne University in Pittsburgh and author of The Presidents and the Constitution: A Living History.

Goldsmith notes that the incoming Biden administration is already facing a lot of pressure to investigate and potentially prosecute Trump for some of his actions, and that while President-elect Joe Biden has not previously indicated any great enthusiasm for that idea, Goldsmith says that "if Trump pardons himself, it's going to make it more likely that they will go forward." The Justice Department, he says, "is not going to want to acquiesce in what they think is an unconstitutional assertion of the pardon power."

Duquesne's Gormley agrees.

"President Joe Biden will be the keeper of the executive branch under the Constitution when he takes the oath of office," Gormley says, and "he cannot just sit passively by. He needs to at least plant flag in the ground and say, 'This is not permissible.' "

What kind of a flag? There are multiple options, Gormley says. Biden could "unpardon" Trump, and if the former president wants to challenge that action in court, he could certainly do so.

Or the Justice Department could issues a new, more fleshed-out legal opinion declaring that such pardons exceed the president's constitutional powers.

Goldsmith notes that the Biden administration could simply open a new investigation of Trump, even convene a grand jury to hear evidence. That would almost certainly provoke a legal challenge from Trump, but Goldsmith says he thinks that even on the current extremely conservative and "pro-executive power court," there would "not be five votes" to sustain a self pardon.

Were Trump to prevail, of course, another norm of American history would be broken.


I think the reality is we are once again bumping on something that is just a 'norm' rather than an explicit legal position. The normal position would be that a president would not pardon themselves of any crimes. But the legal position, whilst likely to agree that they cannot, is not cast iron at present.
 

43096

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Well, that's the question isn't it? The Constitution is unhelpfully (or helpfully I suppose depending on your point of view) vague on the matter as it simply says:



Link

My understanding is that the limit in terms of whether you can pardon yourself has never been tested as no-one else has tried. The only other time it's been close is with Nixon and he didn't try it himself and was pardoned by Ford.

NPR have recently published an interesting article on this subject (and within is some of the argument that you yourself have made above!):




I think the reality is we are once again bumping on something that is just a 'norm' rather than an explicit legal position. The normal position would be that a president would not pardon themselves of any crimes. But the legal position, whilst likely to agree that they cannot, is not cast iron at present.
You can see why the Democrats are looking at impeachment, even though the process would run beyond Biden’s inauguration, as Trump can’t pardon himself for impeachment.
 

Senex

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My understanding is that the limit in terms of whether you can pardon yourself has never been tested as no-one else has tried. The only other time it's been close is with Nixon and he didn't try it himself and was pardoned by Ford.

NPR have recently published an interesting article on this subject (and within is some of the argument that you yourself have made above!):


I think the reality is we are once again bumping on something that is just a 'norm' rather than an explicit legal position. The normal position would be that a president would not pardon themselves of any crimes. But the legal position, whilst likely to agree that they cannot, is not cast iron at present.
Thanks for that really interesting NPR link. The topic really does raise some fascinating questions of jurisprudence, but there are also really interesting questions about ideas from the past surviving through into the US constitution. How could educated men (because they all were!) of the eighteenth century give a single individual a near-unlimited power to pardon—it is just so mediæval?
 

edwin_m

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Usually it's an offence to benefit from the criminal actions of someone else. If the person benefiting was the President, they they could potentially pardon the original crime but would have to self-pardon to avoid punishment for benefiting from it. Taking that one step further, I think if the President pardoned someone in return for personal gain then the pardon might or might not stand but the President would be at risk of being charged in relation to the gain.

It appears that impeachment proceedings can continue after a President leaves office - there probably isn't time to complete the process before, and the Dems will have a couple more Senate votes in the next session. But I doubt impeachment can nullify any pardons granted before any conviction.

Thanks for that really interesting NPR link. The topic really does raise some fascinating questions of jurisprudence, but there are also really interesting questions about ideas from the past surviving through into the US constitution. How could educated men (because they all were!) of the eighteenth century give a single individual a near-unlimited power to pardon—it is just so mediæval?
I think that comes back to the underlying assumption that the holders of power will be decent upstanding individuals who will not act against the best interests of the country, as the writers of the constitution were. Hence the number of practices we probably assumed were written down as law somewhere, but turn out to be nothing more than norms of behaviour. Even W Bush, a terrible president in many ways, respected the office and tried to do his best, but Trump represents a new low.
 
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dgl

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Well Democrats will go ahead with asking Pence to invoke the 25th amendment stating that the president is unfit for office, should that fail then they will start impeachment proceeding, although whether they will get much republican support for their actions is yet to be seen.
 

trebor79

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Well Democrats will go ahead with asking Pence to invoke the 25th amendment stating that the president is unfit for office, should that fail then they will start impeachment proceeding, although whether they will get much republican support for their actions is yet to be seen.
I think the Democrats are playing into Trump and Trump supporter's hands to an extent here.
I can't help thinking they would do far better to just ignore Trump for the next 9 days, and focus things that really matter. That would probably damage Trumps ego more than impeaching him, and giving him a platform to continue his nonsensical claims.

I actually think Trump is suffering from some kind of mental impairment, he's not behaving like a rational human being.
 

DarloRich

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My understanding is that the limit in terms of whether you can pardon yourself has never been tested as no-one else has tried. The only other time it's been close is with Nixon and he didn't try it himself and was pardoned by Ford.


There is a Supreme Court case waiting to happen in relation to Trump and his pardon. I feel fairly certain he will seek to pardon himself and he may make such a pardon in a way that seeks to cover past, present and future behaviour. That cant be allowed to stand unchallenged as it is like declaring yourself subject to the divine right of kings!

I also think there is more to come before and after he is turfed out of office. He wont go quietly. He has tried once to orchestrate a coup. He will try again. He thinks/hopes he can persuade the military and police and in particular his goon squads in the border forces to join him and his fascist chums in usurping democracy.

Frankly i think he is mental and wants dragging off to the loony bin!

I think the Democrats are playing into Trump and Trump supporter's hands to an extent here.
I can't help thinking they would do far better to just ignore Trump for the next 9 days, and focus things that really matter. That would probably damage Trumps ego more than impeaching him, and giving him a platform to continue his nonsensical claims.

I actually think Trump is suffering from some kind of mental impairment, he's not behaving like a rational human being.


They cannot do that. Trump incited his nutjob extreme right followers to storm Parliament and try to capture or kill elected officials. You cant let that pass. it has to be challenged or we may as well give in to the likes of Trump.

Very publicly trump and his followers need to be identified, held & punished via the courts. They tried to subvert the US democracy! it was an armed insurrection for goodness sake. You cant just turn a blind eye to that!
 
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edwin_m

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If nothing else it's unfair for "ordinary people" to be punished for their actions while the rich and powerful who instigated them escape scot-free.
 

WelshBluebird

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For some of the more legal questions - LegalEagle on YouTube has done a fair few videos on questions like can Trump pardon himself and if there are any limits to that.

In terms of the stuff about Twitter and Parler etc - remember these are private companies deciding who they want to have as "customers" essentially. A right that the republicans have literally gone to the supreme court to try to defend in very recent history. Seems a bit odd they are now expecting that to not apply to them!

I can't help thinking they would do far better to just ignore Trump for the next 9 days, and focus things that really matter. That would probably damage Trumps ego more than impeaching him, and giving him a platform to continue his nonsensical claims.
The problem with that is two fold:
  1. What will Trump do in the last 9 days of being President? There's been talk about about him pardoning himself but that is probably just the tip of the iceberg!
  2. What precedent will that set? That you can incite a mob to attack the capitol in an act that causes 5 deaths and could easily have been more (considering they had explosives, zip ties, weapons etc) and have literally zero consequence?

The behaviour of the Dems in Congress in seeking to impeach Trump when he has only 10 more days as POTUS is unwise, unnecessary and vindictive. They have only just scraped over the line in electoral terms and antagonising a substantial proportion of the electorate is hardly the way to heal wounds. It would be advisable if they turned the other cheek, let Trump just slip away and don't hound him now or when he has left office. If they pursue the GOP too vigorously, prominent Dems are at risk of assassination.
So you are saying two things:
  1. That we should just set a precedent that you can incite a mob to commit an armed violent attack the capitol and face no consequence.
  2. That we should pander to the threat of MAGA nutters committing murder.
I don't think either give a good look.
 
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najaB

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I can't help thinking they would do far better to just ignore Trump for the next 9 days, and focus things that really matter.
He encited a rebellion against the government that resulted in five deaths. What matters more than that?
 

birchesgreen

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I have this mental image of Trump sitting on his own all sad looking at his phone blankly.

As for not going after Trump for what happened, i think that would be a big mistake. A mob attacked the US Capitol building and trashed the place, its pretty much unthinkable!
 
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