ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

43096 said:

Agreed. Just one caveat on that: since the 73s got the drophead Dellner couplers, can they still couple to the HST bar coupler?

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Would need someone directly involved with them to confirm it but as of a couple of years ago I think it was still OK to use them for any conventional purpose. If they are similar style dellners to a 57/3 then the answer would probably be yes I think, as I'm fairly sure ROG has dragged full sets or power cars with a similar dellner attached and still managed it. Likewise there may have been a few instances where the GW DRS hired 57 has dragged a broken hst set to a depot in the past. Would need confirming though re the 73s.

I'm also curious as to whether Scotrail had a spare serviceable hst on shed at Inverness that could have been sent down to tow the failed set to Inverness as I nearly forgot that's sometimes the case.

47827 said:

Would need someone directly involved with them to confirm it but as of a couple of years ago I think it was still OK to use them for any conventional purpose. If they are similar style dellners to a 57/3 then the answer would probably be yes I think, as I'm fairly sure ROG has dragged full sets or power cars with a similar dellner attached and still managed it. Likewise there may have been a few instances where the GW DRS hired 57 has dragged a broken hst set to a depot in the past. Would need confirming though re the 73s.

I'm also curious as to whether Scotrail had a spare serviceable hst on shed at Inverness that could have been sent down to tow the failed set to Inverness as I nearly forgot that's sometimes the case.

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I don't see why they shouldn't be able to - The Caley Sleeper 73/9s still retain their standard draw hook (required to attach the HST Emergency Bar to), with only the drop Buckeye & Rubbing plate removed when the Drophead Dellner's were fitted.

43096 said:

I know but certainly historically not all drawhooks were compatible with the HST bar coupler. Hence the question.

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Haven't heard that one before I have to admit!

fgwrich said:

Haven't heard that one before I have to admit!

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Class 66/67 swing head couplers for a start (they use an adapter to the swing head, rather than the drawhook, in consequence) and back in BR days some locos were found to have incompatible hooks as well, I believe.

I think 37419 is still up in Inverness which I'd have thought would be a good option to rescue an HST or is there logistic problems with that? Have the 73's ever rescued anything around Inverness? I remember 67003 hauled a railtour back south after 37403 failed on the Saturday but I don't remember if the 73's have ever rescued anything here.

JohnMcL7 said:

I think 37419 is still up in Inverness which I'd have thought would be a good option to rescue an HST or is there logistic problems with that? Have the 73's ever rescued anything around Inverness? I remember 67003 hauled a railtour back south after 37403 failed on the Saturday but I don't remember if the 73's have ever rescued anything here.

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You would need a DRS driver for the 37 as not sure if anyone else would be OK to take it now with no other companies with Inverness based crew running 1 up there since 2018/19.

Sorry to bring up this comedy post again, but I believe this is the description of the last time Caledonian Sleeper rescued a stricken service off Slochd. It was probably best that the 73s stayed where they were... Only joking, enjoy it anyway.

OmniCity999 said:

you brought this up last week and were given the same responses...

there wont be a new livery.

the current livery has been set by Transport Scotland and it will stay.

The Franchisee doesnt have control of the livery.

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Thank you.

47271 said:

Sorry to bring up this comedy post again, but I believe this is the description of the last time Caledonian Sleeper rescued a stricken service off Slochd. It was probably best that the 73s stayed where they were... Only joking, enjoy it anyway.

Caledonian Sleeper 30 July

I was a passenger on last night's 1M16 the 2044 Inverness to London Caledonian Sleeper It started well, exactly on time, but 20 minutes into the journey when I had just finished my excellent cheese and biscuits - it all suddenly ground to a halt. We passengers were told this was due to an...

www.railforums.co.uk

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Isn't that the sleeper being rescued rather than the sleeper rescuing a service? I was watching a blu-ray about diesel hauled passenger services and they featured the sleeper, after filming the sleeper arriving in Inverness a second sleeper had arrived. The second sleeper was the previous night's southbound train on which the 67 has failed and a passing 66 on a freight service had continued to Inverness then returned to haul the failed sleeper back to Inverness. I'm assuming it's the same event as described in that forum post since it sounds almost identical.

Going back to the HSTs, is there any standard rescue process if the train completely fails and needs to be pulled by something else?

JohnMcL7 said:

Going back to the HSTs, is there any standard rescue process if the train completely fails and needs to be pulled by something else?

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They have a big heavy coupling adaptor that’s kept inside the locomotive. The nose flap is opened, the coupling adaptor is fitted, and then another loco can rescue it.

There’s a few videos here about it:

• (Being rescued by a HST) -

• (Being rescued by a ‘Thunderbird’) -

_toommm_ said:

They have a big heavy coupling adaptor that’s kept inside the locomotive. The nose flap is opened, the coupling adaptor is fitted, and then another loco can rescue it.

There’s a few videos here about it:

• (Being rescued by a HST) -

• (Being rescued by a ‘Thunderbird’) -

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There’s actually two coupling bars carried: long bar for HST-to-HST coupling and a shorter one for coupling to a loco.

At some point in the distant past, I guess in the 90s or early 2000s on a very wintry morning I got lucky and happened to be on the Highland Chieftain from Inverness southbound when there was some kind of problem and they just stuck a 37 on the front. As far as I recall, we left Inverness like that and must have gone at least as far as Perth. I can't remember what then happened - whether it was terminated there or Edinburgh, or power car swap or what. I guess back then, that would have been a relatively routine procedure with enough people with the experience just to decide to do it whereas now I imagine it's not the same at all.

BRX said:

I guess back then, that would have been a relatively routine procedure with enough people with the experience just to decide to do it whereas now I imagine it's not the same at all.

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These days the issue often isn't that there aren't people with experience, just that those people work for a different company so aren't in a position to help.

BRX said:

At some point in the distant past, I guess in the 90s or early 2000s on a very wintry morning I got lucky and happened to be on the Highland Chieftain from Inverness southbound when there was some kind of problem and they just stuck a 37 on the front. As far as I recall, we left Inverness like that and must have gone at least as far as Perth. I can't remember what then happened - whether it was terminated there or Edinburgh, or power car swap or what. I guess back then, that would have been a relatively routine procedure with enough people with the experience just to decide to do it whereas now I imagine it's not the same at all.

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Maybe a few times a year on the southbound Chieftan by late 90s/2000 ish but certainly not regular. In the 80s and early 90s probably still a bit more common. Would tend to be a set or power car swap at Edinburgh (occasionally terminating altogether) in later years. The East Coast franchise has been known to drag hst sets in service throughout on rare occasions to say Leeds up until a few years ago (usually 67s). XC were the last TOC I recall to do significant hst dragging of any real distance on a weekly (occasionally daily) basis. I've seen long distance services dragged all or most of the way with Edinburgh to Plymouth one of the furthest via the WCML and Manchester. They were almost completely stopped by the early 2000s except on buffered power cars due to an issue with the coupler pins giving up on one such working. After this, rescues of shorter distances (say Plymouth to Exeter only) were all you would tend to get in service. Midland Mainline drags were among the rarest with rescues only. Great Western tended to only be in Devon by the 2000s and got rare in later years.

Scotrail, despite operating shorter sets, will tend not to operate on a single power car thus terminating the train at the next suitable (or even unsuitable station) or cancelling the train throughout if before departure. There are unlikely to many rescues with anything other than another hst given that is the only suitable thing their drivers sign and so a DRS 37 or say a DB 66 would need a driver supplied too and be more costly to hire in. Thus far despite delays getting them into service and teething troubles, which will probably increasingly reduce as staff get used to them, there haven't been masses of power failures between stations or complete failures like the one in recent days. That's good but does mean there's a greater risk of a poor incident recovery process as controllers and ground staff aren't used to the incidents or deciding the quickest and most sensible way of dealing with it. That is essentially as they are running DMU routes where little else bar the sleeper operated for 25 years (which itself became a separate operator several years ago). Let's hope this incident was useful experience and can cause procedures to be looked at more rather than as a criticism for using anything other than dmu stock.

_toommm_ said:

They have a big heavy coupling adaptor that’s kept inside the locomotive. The nose flap is opened, the coupling adaptor is fitted, and then another loco can rescue it.

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I realise the HSTs can be hauled but the question is more what is expected to rescue them, I don't know what there is up Aberdeen way but at Inverness the 73's are the only locomotives that are around each day aside from the 43's so I was wondering how Scotrail planned to handle an HST failure like this one.

47827 said:

Scotrail, despite operating shorter sets, will tend not to operate on a single power car thus terminating the train at the next suitable (or even unsuitable station) or cancelling the train throughout if before departure. There are unlikely to many rescues with anything other than another hst given that is the only suitable thing their drivers sign and so a DRS 37 or say a DB 66 would need a driver supplied too and be more costly to hire in. Thus far despite delays getting them into service and teething troubles, which will probably increasingly reduce as staff get used to them, there haven't been masses of power failures between stations or complete failures like the one in recent days. That's good but does mean there's a greater risk of a poor incident recovery process as controllers and ground staff aren't used to the incidents or deciding the quickest and most sensible way of dealing with it. That is essentially as they are running DMU routes where little else bar the sleeper operated for 25 years (which itself became a separate operator several years ago). Let's hope this incident was useful experience and can cause procedures to be looked at more rather than as a criticism for using anything other than dmu stock.

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Thanks for the information, that makes sense.

I vaguely recall in the late 90s being on a GNER HST from York to Dundee that was dragged by a 91 as far as Edinburgh before the front power car was swapped for the onward journey north.

I don’t know how far south the drag started, but presumably if the issue with the power car were found at Kings Cross, it’s easier and quicker to put a 91 on the front than it is to bring in a spare PC (assuming the defective one can still move and a 91 is available)?

A swap at Edinburgh is (comparatively) easier, with the platform crossovers.

47827 said:

Scotrail, despite operating shorter sets, will tend not to operate on a single power car thus terminating the train at the next suitable (or even unsuitable station) or cancelling the train throughout if before departure.

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Seems to slightly defeat the advantage of having two power cars!

Especially if the train is already well on its way to its destination, I'd have thought that the logic would be that it would be less disruptive to carry on with one power car, even though there's an obvious risk that that one fails too, and a bit of time might be lost in places.

BRX said:

Seems to slightly defeat the advantage of having two power cars!

Especially if the train is already well on its way to its destination, I'd have thought that the logic would be that it would be less disruptive to carry on with one power car, even though there's an obvious risk that that one fails too, and a bit of time might be lost in places.

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I personally agree with you there. I know the sorts of reasons offered by the modern railway though as to why it is avoided. There are probably limited instances where Scotrail would probably continue in service to the destination with one power car on. I suspect if that had been the case the other day in icey weather, for instance, control would have done that rather than block than line and dump passengers in the snow at say Carrbridge. If it was somewhere like Stirling, Perth or Dundee it's more like the set would come out of service then run empty to nearby sidings or its home depot. This is where BR and the early version of private TOC's were winning operationally for any other faults. At least there was a greater ability, desire and willingness to run each service even though I'm not blaming Scotrail for parts of the modern railway outwith their control.

marks87 said:

I vaguely recall in the late 90s being on a GNER HST from York to Dundee that was dragged by a 91 as far as Edinburgh before the front power car was swapped for the onward journey north.

I don’t know how far south the drag started, but presumably if the issue with the power car were found at Kings Cross, it’s easier and quicker to put a 91 on the front than it is to bring in a spare PC (assuming the defective one can still move and a 91 is available)?

A swap at Edinburgh is (comparatively) easier, with the platform crossovers.

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A hst dragged by a 91! Wow

Azzy49 said:

A hst dragged by a 91! Wow

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the timing log for that run would be interesting. Was one of the power cars providing traction? Any info out there?

gingertom said:

the timing log for that run would be interesting. Was one of the power cars providing traction? Any info out there?

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I've got no idea, that's the first I've ever heard of that.

Azzy49 said:

A hst dragged by a 91! Wow

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here's a pic (not mine) of an example

https://www.flickr.com/photos/72334387@N03/24172996847

gingertom said:

Was one of the power cars providing traction? Any info out there?

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No traction from the HST. One power car would be running to provide train supply.

43096 said:

No traction from the HST. One power car would be running to provide train supply.

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Mandatory reminder now that there were 91+43 Frankenstein's monster sets running in the early days of Intercity 225 operations due to delays getting the DVTs into service. With the 43 providing traction too.

najaB said:

Mandatory reminder now that there were 91+43 Frankenstein's monster sets running in the early days of Intercity 225 operations due to delays getting the DVTs into service. With the 43 providing traction too.

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Those were HST sets with the 91 replacing one power car - the 91s were ready for use before the Mk4 sets.

DavidB said:

Those were HST sets with the 91 replacing one power car - the 91s were ready for use before the Mk4 sets.

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D'oh! I knew that too! That what I get for posting while half-asleep.

DavidB said:

Those were HST sets with the 91 replacing one power car - the 91s were ready for use before the Mk4 sets.

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Were they HST sets or were they LHCS Mk3s?

43 302 said:

Were they HST sets or were they LHCS Mk3s?

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HST sets. The TGS vehicles were fitted with buffers and drophead buckeye couplers, though I've never understood why this was necessary as a 91 can couple to an HST vehicle using its buckeye.

43096 said:

HST sets. The TGS vehicles were fitted with buffers and drophead buckeye couplers, though I've never understood why this was necessary as a 91 can couple to an HST vehicle using its buckeye.

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Interesting. Were the buffered PCs providing power then? I would've thought one 91 would be enough!

43096 said:

HST sets. The TGS vehicles were fitted with buffers and drophead buckeye couplers, though I've never understood why this was necessary as a 91 can couple to an HST vehicle using its buckeye.

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Weren't there a few spare TGSs fitted with the RCH jumpers for this purpose, but no buffers or coupler changes?

43 302 said:

Interesting. Were the buffered PCs providing power then? I would've thought one 91 would be enough!

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Yes - after initial tests they found that running the power cars just as driving trailers / ETS generators was causing issues (armature glazing ont he traction motors?) so had them powering after that.

43 302 said:

Interesting. Were the buffered PCs providing power then? I would've thought one 91 would be enough!

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They didn't initially, just providing train supply. But after engine problems with prolonged periods of running in ETS and traction motor commutator issues from being dragged around, it was modified so that the power car provided traction power as well.

DavidB said:

Weren't there a few spare TGSs fitted with the RCH jumpers for this purpose, but no buffers or coupler changes?

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I think you may be on to something...

I have the following as being modified with buffers, drophead buckeyes and RCH jumpers: 44021/056/058/059/086/097/098/101

However, I have also seen a photo of 44077 clearly with evidence of RCH jumpers having been fitted: Virgin Trains East Coast Mk3 TGS Coach No. 44077 | Virgin Tr… | Flickr

Anyone got a definitive list of which ones had what modifications?