This was the one that came to mind for me.This one comes to mind:
Mum whose teenage daughter killed at level crossing is suing Network Rail
Straight-A student Milena Gagic, 16, died instantly when she was hit by the night trainwww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk
There's a surprising number of results for teenager killed on level crossing although many are missing the circumstances.
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More Stupidity Taking Photos - This time at a Footpath Crossing at Tidemills, East Sussex
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bramling
Veteran Member
This one comes to mind:
Mum whose teenage daughter killed at level crossing is suing Network Rail
Straight-A student Milena Gagic, 16, died instantly when she was hit by the night train
There's a surprising number of results for teenager killed on level crossing although many are missing the circumstances.
Not a stunt though, more a case of misadventure due to not expecting a train to show up.
High Dyke
Established Member
Perhaps they should be shown graphic pictures of a body after it has been hit by a train?
Nottingham59
Established Member
Nope. The biggest cause of fatalities on foot crossings, by far, is suicide. I fear that advertising that they are a pretty effective way of getting killed is going to counter-productive, I'm afraid. That's why I personally think NR should always remove flowers and other tributes left by grieving parents: these also just advertise the site.
I've often wondered whether or not they should share tales of people who haven't been successful. Those who have confined themselves to care for the remainder of their lives, or those who experienced a painful and prolonged end. It's awful, but I think the draw is the perceived infallibility of the method, could defeating that perception reduce numbers? I don't know.
What I do know is that pissing about on LCs is really bloody stupid.
Stathern Jc
Member
I had a random "suggestion" come up on YouTube eariler which had the footage from the camera at this crossing.
This clearly showed the two ladies having a good look in all directions before the posing for the photo.
Remarkably this included thoroughly checking out the CCTV camera that was filming them, and that did seem to make them think for a few seconds before deciding it was the thing to do.
(I haven't included a link as it turned out to be an opinionated rant, and hopefully there are now more objective uploads to be found)
While soon over and done with it was a bit more than a case of a quick "stop, click and go", and while obviously extremely unwise this specific incident didn't constitute a near miss.
The real issue is the setting of an appalling example creating the risk of copycat cases with a greater likelihood of a tragedy (there isn't a varying degree of the consequences here). Some might accuse us of sounding po-faced when there's not been any misfortune, but there isn't any room for a grey area on the tracks.
This clearly showed the two ladies having a good look in all directions before the posing for the photo.
Remarkably this included thoroughly checking out the CCTV camera that was filming them, and that did seem to make them think for a few seconds before deciding it was the thing to do.
(I haven't included a link as it turned out to be an opinionated rant, and hopefully there are now more objective uploads to be found)
While soon over and done with it was a bit more than a case of a quick "stop, click and go", and while obviously extremely unwise this specific incident didn't constitute a near miss.
The real issue is the setting of an appalling example creating the risk of copycat cases with a greater likelihood of a tragedy (there isn't a varying degree of the consequences here). Some might accuse us of sounding po-faced when there's not been any misfortune, but there isn't any room for a grey area on the tracks.
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Llanigraham
On Moderation
The results are exactly the same; by ignoring the safety rules for crossing the line, someone could killed. Be that an idiot who lies on the floor at a crossing, an idiot who parks his car on a crossing or an old lady who ignores telephoning to check. All are stupid stunts!
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Sorry, but that is clutching at straws. Someone was killed because they ignored the rules.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
There is CCTV but I assume you mean a crossing controlled by the signalman (like an MCB)?
I have never seen vehicles use the crossing. The road stops at the crossing on the north side whilst the south side continues as a footpath to the nearby Tide Mills nature reserve, heritage site and Newhaven beach, and therefore unsuitable for the average car. There is also a kind of loudspeaker system that amplifies the train horn as it passes the whistle board but of course, there is nothing to stop pedestrians misusing the crossing. There is a good view towards Bishopstone to the east but the line curves to the west of the crossing and trains running towards Seaford run at considerable speed. I have been on a train a few times which has had to stop at the crossing (after leaving Bishopstone) due to people loitering and not paying attention
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the bit when people complain about "health and safety culture" in response to suggestions that crossings should be closed and bridged- they always seem to gloss over that it's not just about the person being hit. It's about the driver. it's about other train crew. It's about the investigators and clean up workers. It's about the delays to services. And that's "just" from pedestrians- as we well know, when it involves vehicles the outcomes can be so much worse
If the only person affected by crossing misuse was the idiot themselves then it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
If the only person affected by crossing misuse was the idiot themselves then it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
And this exactly why there is such a huge safety campaign on level crossing misuse/general trespass. Regardless of the original motives it still remains dangerous because a train can always pass at any moment.
Nottingham59
Established Member
Yes, they were killed by ignoring the rules. And it should have not happened. My point is there is huge difference between ignoring the rules to grab a photo for instagram (what I would call a "stunt"), and ignoring the rules because you've got used to the pattern of trains. And that is important because you need different remedies to change those different patterns of behaviour. Focusing on the Stunts is actually a distraction from the other behaviours that are much more common and much more likely to result in deaths.
Dieseldriver
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I think I agree with what you are saying. As a Train Driver, I personally think it would be much worse to hit someone who was ignorant to the dangers (or had taken a silly risk out of a moment of madness) rather than someone who had knowingly put themselves in a dangerous position for a stunt. I think if someone is willing to lie down on a foot crossing and take selfie’s, as bad as it sounds they are bringing whatever consequences on themselves.
High Dyke
Established Member
I meant my post in the context of where individuals involved in such incidents, as posted here, are identified and dealt with by the police. Those persons ought to be shown the images to shock them into realising the consequences of their actions. I didn't mean that graphic pictures are widely publicised, as though glorifying such stupid actions as was seen in the subject of this thread.
philthetube
Established Member
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Unless there are exceptions for railways, the fa t that this route has remained available for pedestrians for many years would cause it to become a right of way.
Maybe add a sign that states the reasons why even if they think there are no trains why there could be one even on a single line, here's a small list of things that I think could be reasons,
- Obstruction on the line or other issue requires the train to reverse
- Train failed and another train is sent to rescue it
- Line is closed for work but there are still engineering trains
- Diverted, late, goods or not in service train not in the timetable
- Failure in the signalling
- A SPAD or similar
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
People/walkers/tourists etc. are not going to think to stand and read a long-winded sign before they cross. The consideration that the railway might be dangerous won't be in the forefront of their minds whilst on a scenic walk. How many people do you know actually stop at a crossing and read a sign? All they are going to do is just look left and right and if they can't see a train, cross the line
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Only if someone has actually done the paperwork to "claim" it and get it added to the Definitive Map. It is a misapprehension that it happens automatically, I can assure you it doesn't.
Nottingham59
Established Member
Footpathmap shows it as continuous across the line, and that derives its data from the definitive map.
footpathmap.co.uk
Map | FootPathMap.co.uk
Some people might be upset to know that human life is not valued at infinity, no matter how gruesome the mess might be. Humanity cannot spend its entire income and effort on safety measures; if it did, we would for example be re-building our cities underground against possible meteor strikes (a small but real danger) and restricting road and rail vehicles to 5mph everywhere. I have worked on risk assessment in industry (not railways at the time) and we had a money value for a human life (I won't repeat it here as it could be emotive and would be out of date anyway) which enabled us to know when to stop adding expensive safety measures. The approach was accepted by the Health and Safety Executive, with whom we frequently met to discuss these matters.
FWIW I have been involved in a train crash clear up (the LU Moorgate crash). I did not deal with bodies, but I will never forget the smell of rotting death and antiseptic in the tunnel.
In fact, as is often the case where railways are concerned, if you have a certain amount of money to spend on improving safety it could usually be much more effectively spent elsewhere, on road related safety for example, footbridges over busy roads perhaps.
Pedestrian road casualty statistics show it is not that simple. I would rate foot crossing of a country railway far safer than crossing a road. If you can see or hear a train then don't cross. That is not a rule you could follow to cross the vast majority of roads unless you wait until about 2 am; instead you need to estimate speeds and distances, in fact you are having to solve differential equations in your head. As for swerving, I have had drivers swerve towards me a few times when (otherwise safely) crossing roads, just for the hell of it apparently.
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LSWR Cavalier
Established Member
As for road danger, casualties could be halved easily with no financial costs
Just through enforcement
Just through enforcement
chorleyjeff
Member
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Prosecution for what ?
Steve Harris
Member
And I have had the opposite. Someone misjudging the speed I'm driving at and when 3/4 across the carriageway realise I'm heading towards them, for them to turn round and try and run back in the direction they came!! The more sensible thing to do would be to carry on crossing to the central refuge in the road, as I had already started to slow down and steer to go behind them. Instead I had to carry out an emergency stop.
Getting back on topic, unfortunately people will carry on being idiots until they are educated on how dangerous a railway line can be OR (like Covid) won't realise until someone close to them gets injured or killed.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Maybe...trespass, endangering the life of others...I don't know
What we don't know is the time the photo was taken which would give a clue as to when a train was due to pass - whether or not that makes any difference to a potential prosecution, I also don't know
Both women were acting irresponsibly and could easily been run down by a train. The woman lying down may not have got up in time, got her foot stuck in the rail, panicked all by which time it would have been too late
Llanigraham
On Moderation
And is known not to be accurate!Footpathmap shows it as continuous across the line, and that derives its data from the definitive map.
Map | FootPathMap.co.uk
Vandalism and trespass - Network Rail
The Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 sets out ten offences, for which fines, or Penalty Notice for Disorder (PND), can be issued. These offences are:
- being drunk in a public place
- throwing fireworks
- knowingly making false alarm calls to the fire brigade
- trespassing on the railway
- throwing stones at trains
- buying alcohol when under the age of 18
- wasting police time
- disorderly behaviour while drunk
- consuming alcohol in a designated public place
- using public telephones to send messages known to be false or to cause alarm
Nottingham59
Established Member
I really don't think that stopping to take or pose for a photo when walking along a public right of way constitutes tresspass.
IIRC - the railway itself is not a right of way. Again IIRC extinguishing rights of way appears in parliamentary acts. Could somebody confirm this?
HS2 Construction: closures and diversions | Buckinghamshire Council (buckscc.gov.uk)
HS2 Construction: closures and diversions | Buckinghamshire Council (buckscc.gov.uk)
Llanigraham
On Moderation
As I have pointed out it is quite possible that the RoW ends at one boundary and restarts at the opposite boundary, making the short piece actually crossing the tracks a Permissive Path, so that trespass is perfectly possible. You need to go back to the Enabling Act of that railway to get the most accurate answer.
(See other thread quoted here)
Correct/confirmed, as I have previously said, and repeated above.
Perhaps it would help if the press releases describing people hit by trains were really lurid about the injuries, and vague about when they'd have lost consciousness. I suspect people choose suicide by train partly because it sounds like a quick and certain death, so convincing them to try something else at least helps the railway. OTOH, it would hurt grieving relatives, who can currently take comfort in the idea that it is an instant death and the deceased never had time to feel a thing.
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