Wallsendmag
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I think Covid is hastening that.
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EMR Smart Kiosk
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Haywain
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The plan is to have them at 40 stations which will meet a committed obligation.
cactustwirly
Established Member
ToD is still needed for cross London advances and travel cards etc
Yes, We've got a list of them emailed out, the current number planned is just over 30 (I think 32 if I remember rightly) rather than 40.
High Dyke
Established Member
No surprise there. EMR management seem to think their world finishes at Nottingham and doesn't continue eastwards, well apart from Skegness!
tetudo boy
Member
They just look like one of those bank account things from banks. I'm not complaining though, they do look fine.
Northern introduced something similar to this (It looked similar to a McDonald's screen kiosk) so I'm not sure if it's the first. Japan also already has a lot of these "smart kiosks".
Northern introduced something similar to this (It looked similar to a McDonald's screen kiosk) so I'm not sure if it's the first. Japan also already has a lot of these "smart kiosks".
To be fair most Eastern stations will get them. Metheringham, Ruskington, Saxilby, Gainsborough LR, Market Rasen, Rauceby, Heckington, Wainfleet, Hykeham, Swinderby, Collingham, Fiskerton, Lowdham, Burton Joyce and Carlton, Netherfield, Radcliffe, Bingham, Aslockton and Bottesford IIRC.
lkpridgeon
Verified Rep - FastJP
Out of interest for does that mean the stations will be enabled for smartcard tickets (not just seasons) and smartcard fulfillment?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say EMR's look much better with the 20 ish inch screen - I find those big screen ones awkward to use up close.
Chiltern (like Northern in being part of Arriva) also installed them, last time I used them they gave out normal tickets. The large screen is also not particularly easy to use due to its size and being so close up.
Qwerty133
Established Member
EMR management seem to think that they only serve St Pancras, Corby, East Midlands Parkway, Derby and Nottingham...
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
There's a more detailed article on the Cammax website here: https://www.cammaxlimited.co.uk/case-studies/east-midlands-railway-smart-tvm/ which I've quoted below. Also below is a photo of part of the user interface. Has anybody had a chance to try one of these out? It would be interesting to hear how the usability of the interface compares to the Vix system used by LNER and/or the Parkeon one used by Northern and Chiltern.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Not tried one out, but looks like another one of those awful interfaces which mandates use of a journey planner even if all you want is a day return to the next stop
Interestingly, it looks like there is space for tabs at the top - maybe one tab could be a journey planner, while the other is a 'classic' interface. That would be ideal.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
LNER TVMs aren't supplied by VIX they're Flowbird machines,same as Northern Chiltern.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
But the user interface is different, isn't it (unless anything has changed recently)? The LNER machines have the Vix-designed user interface whereas the Northern/Chiltern ones have, by most accounts on the forum, an inferior interface which I think is designed by Parkeon/Flowbird themselves (but I am just guessing on that). In general I think it's a good development that there seems to be more competition in TVM user interfaces.
Haywain
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LNER now use the Flowbird GUI.
cactustwirly
Established Member
There's a more detailed article on the Cammax website here: https://www.cammaxlimited.co.uk/case-studies/east-midlands-railway-smart-tvm/ which I've quoted below. Also below is a photo of part of the user interface. Has anybody had a chance to try one of these out? It would be interesting to hear how the usability of the interface compares to the Vix system used by LNER and/or the Parkeon one used by Northern and Chiltern.
Looks like another journey planner, brilliant!
Can't they just install more of the standard machines, they have at stations like Leicester and Nottingham? Those are really easy to use and are used by many other ToCs like GTR and GWR.
Haywain
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Because they’re horribly expensive and only issue CCST tickets which the industry wants to do away with.
Yep, and this machine let's you buy "on the day" advance tickets, which you can't on the older Ticket Vending Machines.
Haywain
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We’ve had TVMs able to do that for years. But that needs a journey planner interface which some people seem not to like.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Because nobody, as yet, has managed to design one which doesn't also double the time taken to buy a basic ticket.
A journey planner is fine, its just that all the TVMs are really slow for some reason, taking years to get to the next screen. I'm not really sure why, a ticket machine is not at all intensive and an integrated system which can run it well would be very cheap.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Which is irrelevant for EMR who don't sell them anyway. I suspect this is a very small amount of on the day sales as well. Even then they'll be mostly using smartphone apps
Because it makes buying a ticket unnecessarily difficult. The normal machines have 2 or 3 screens an takes less than a minute to buy a ticket.
The stupid journey planners have about 10 screens taking at least 5 minutes to buy a simple ticket. Then you have to select trains which you may or may not want to actually travel on, which gives people the false impression they can only travel on the selected trains, even though they are traveling on a flexible ticket.
EMR do, I have purchased on the day EMR advance tickets, I have also done so back in EMT days.
I have used one of these machines, the one at Derby, I was relatively impressed. It seemed a bit quicker to navigate than the LNER machines. Although definitely not useful if you turn up and just want a ticket to a nearby station with a train in a few minutes.
Whilst experiences may vary, I had the opportunity to test the original and journey planner interfaces on the Flowbird machines during the rollout of the new version. In the interest of fairness, I opted to buy a ticket that wasn't on the "Popular Products" screen.
Admittedly I'm a more advanced user than most passengers, but using the original interface I got through to the payment screen in around 15 seconds, and with the journey planner that increased to 45 seconds.
One simple change that would improve the user experience would be to add text along the lines of "If you want a reservation, or don't know what ticket you want, select a train from those shown, otherwise select the ticket." to the screen that lists the trains and fares. Knowing the rail industry, however, that'd probably cost thousands, if not tens of thousands, of pounds. (Cynic, moi?)
Ah, on the day advances. How I love them. Also known as get one for the next train, see one running slightly late so leg it and make it even though it should have left, and then kick off at the guard who doesn't even work for the company you've bought a ticket to travel with when they want to sell you a ticket for their train, even though the helpful booking clerk has circled the time for you.
Or get a list of prices on the Trainline on your phone and just click the cheapest one in 7 hours time at 2330 that calls at all stations via the Moon, clicking through any information presented and then board the rush hour express and again react with anything up to physical violence when you're told that you can't use your £1.20 ticket. Or see the inspector enter the carriage and hurriedly buy one for the next bookable train from your station that isn't valid anyway etc etc etc.
Great idea, naff implementation. I hope a hatchet gets taken to advance and TOC only ticketing in this theoretical restructuring.
Or any ticket sale comes up with big red writing and audio with the instructions and confirmation that you agree to be shot if you ignore them.
My life as a ticket inspector was much easier before they decided to get clever with technology. The worst battle was the bit of card would have the wrong gen on it.
Now I have to know how everybody's smartphone and all the different TVMs work despite rarely using them myself in anger.
Going on Northern's awful things I can't imagine these devices will make it easier, well intentioned or otherwise.
Or get a list of prices on the Trainline on your phone and just click the cheapest one in 7 hours time at 2330 that calls at all stations via the Moon, clicking through any information presented and then board the rush hour express and again react with anything up to physical violence when you're told that you can't use your £1.20 ticket. Or see the inspector enter the carriage and hurriedly buy one for the next bookable train from your station that isn't valid anyway etc etc etc.
Great idea, naff implementation. I hope a hatchet gets taken to advance and TOC only ticketing in this theoretical restructuring.
Or any ticket sale comes up with big red writing and audio with the instructions and confirmation that you agree to be shot if you ignore them.
My life as a ticket inspector was much easier before they decided to get clever with technology. The worst battle was the bit of card would have the wrong gen on it.
Now I have to know how everybody's smartphone and all the different TVMs work despite rarely using them myself in anger.
Going on Northern's awful things I can't imagine these devices will make it easier, well intentioned or otherwise.
Unfortunately they have been unable to reach agreement with TFL on new ticket formats but have decided to press ahead with deploying them anyway.
So the customer suffers by being unable to buy the ticket they want. It's already a problem with sales by guards, from this thread it seems to be spreading to ticket machines too.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though that wouldn't be hard to fix so it was only one more tap than a simple machine. Tap destination, ticket machine shows you the next 5 (say) connections to that destination, including any that haven't departed yet as they are late. Buttons to change time etc if you need to, but almost everyone won't. Once you tap the chosen connection, up come the fares.
The reason they're a problem is that the UI designers are simply not very good. Did they perhaps work on video cassette recorders in the 1980s?
I wonder has anyone ever done any logging of what people do at a TVM to work out what they need to actually make easy? That's how "evidence based" web design is done these days - you keep detailed logs of what people click on, and look to smooth things based on the 80-20 rule - people use 20% of the functionality 80% of the time, so you want to make that the easiest to use.
It also means they can't do ToD, because ToD appears not to be able to differentiate between machines that can issue some tickets and machines that can issue all tickets.
Nobody tell Merseyrail, they'll jump at the chance to install a load. No smiley.
Unfortunately the implementers of planner ticket machines seem to have decided to refuse to sell tickets for trains people might not catch, I can see why they do this but it's problematic when someone arrives and wants to buy a ticket for travel now and a train is due in a few minuites (or is late), those in the know know that they can pick a later train and then select a flexible ticket but it's hardly friendly to the uninitiated.
You seem to be forgetting that most journeys are return journeys and the ticketing system is designed around people purchasing both their outbound and return tickets before starting their outbound journey. The outbound time is pretty obvious (the person probably wants the next train or at least one of the next few trains), the return time not so much.
Haywain
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The new EMR machines are for stations that currently have no retailing facilities, so being able to buy a limited range of tickets is still better than being able to buy none at all.
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