Failed Visual Search Exercise twice

Anon87 · 31 Mar 2021

Hi all,

Just found out I’ve failed the VSE twice. Once last year and once that must have be so long ago that I can’t even remember. Last year’s was totally my own fault as I did the test in completely the wrong environment - full of noise and people! Anyway, that’s done and in the past, so I’m seeking clarification for what this means:

a) I can’t apply to tocs that use the VSE

b) I can’t apply to tocs that use enhanced testing

c) I can’t apply to any toc as this also counts as two attempts overall

d) A combination of the above

Best wishes,

P

RailUK Forums

baz962 · 31 Mar 2021

I'm pretty sure definitely A
Not sure but I think maybe B
Definitely not C
You should be able to apply to tocs that don't use it. And some enhanced tocs don't use vse .

Anon87 · 31 Mar 2021

baz962 said:
I'm pretty sure definitely A
Not sure but I think maybe B
Definitely not C
You should be able to apply to tocs that don't use it. And some enhanced tocs don't use vse .

This would be good news Baz as the other potential companies local to me, GWR, SWR, XC, DB Cargo and TfW all use national I believe!

So you think I still actually have two attempts left at national and possibly some enhanced tocs that don’t use VSE?

baz962 · 1 Apr 2021

Yea. If a toc doesn't use vse it won't affect you. I originally did my psychometric tests with Thameslink and I didn't do vse and my passes were enhanced , which Thameslink required at the time and they didn't require the vse.
Pretty sure you are fine for any toc that doesn't use it. And you definitely haven't lost any lives on the normal psychometric tests.

Anon87 · 1 Apr 2021

baz962 said:
Yea. If a toc doesn't use vse it won't affect you. I originally did my psychometric tests with Thameslink and I didn't do vse and my passes were enhanced , which Thameslink required at the time and they didn't require the vse.
Pretty sure you are fine for any toc that doesn't use it. And you definitely haven't lost any lives on the normal psychometric tests.

Thank for that Baz, appreciate your time.

Out of interest, do we know who actually does use the VSE?

I know Freightliner do. What about Transport for Wales?

Mattydo · 1 Apr 2021

Avanti and South Eastern do

Nevergiveup · 1 Apr 2021

anyone know whats assessments does great northern require? i've passed stage 1 with SWR but failed stage 2 once. also how can i find out if i passed at national or enhanced because SWR only requires national but now i am awaiting assessment day with GTR great northern which requires enhanced so i wanted to figure out which assessments i'll have to sit if i've already passed stage 1 with other TOC

Anon87 · 1 Apr 2021

Thanks for the constructive advice guys.

Teddyward · 1 Apr 2021

I failed vse for arl. I was encouraged by the opc assessor to not give up as my other psychometrics were decent and to try other companies that don’t use vse. Got DMI invites for 5 other companies. Driving trains for one of those for the last two years. Keep going.

Anon87 · 1 Apr 2021

Teddyward said:
I failed vse for arl. I was encouraged by the opc assessor to not give up as my other psychometrics were decent and to try other companies that don’t use vse. Got DMI invites for 5 other companies. Driving trains for one of those for the last two years. Keep going.

Thank you! People like you are what makes this forum the fine resource that it is!

Stigy · 1 Apr 2021

Pete87 said:
Hi all,

Just found out I’ve failed the VSE twice. Once last year and once that must have be so long ago that I can’t even remember. Last year’s was totally my own fault as I did the test in completely the wrong environment - full of noise and people! Anyway, that’s done and in the past, so I’m seeking clarification for what this means:

a) I can’t apply to tocs that use the VSE

b) I can’t apply to tocs that use enhanced testing

c) I can’t apply to any toc as this also counts as two attempts overall

d) A combination of the above

Best wishes,

P

Sorry to hear this.

As has been indicated, C is fine. I was under the impression all enhanced TOCs/FOCs use the VSE, but have seen @baz962’s reply to the contrary. It must therefore be only enhanced TOCs/FOCs that use it, but it’s not necessarily that all do. I’ve never known a standard TOC/FOC to use the VSE.

Mattydo · 1 Apr 2021

There’s a misconception that enhanced is a set level. There is the national standard as set/agreed by the RSSB. Some TOC’s only need this. Some other TOC’s choose to set their own enhanced mark required in certain parts of the assessments. Say national is a grade C, TOC A might want you to get a C+ and TOC B might want grade A. In addition some TOCs might add other tests to those required. The VSE might be one of them (Avanti for example uses this as a sifting exam though, just online). GTR also requires enhanced but it just adds on the DFFT and you’ll sit it at the psychometrics centre. It varies.

Nevergiveup said:
anyone know whats assessments does great northern require? i've passed stage 1 with SWR but failed stage 2 once. also how can i find out if i passed at national or enhanced because SWR only requires national but now i am awaiting assessment day with GTR great northern which requires enhanced so i wanted to figure out which assessments i'll have to sit if i've already passed stage 1 with other TOC

All the usual with enhanced pass plus DFFT. Good luck. As I said one TOC’s enhanced mark isn’t the same as another. GTR will check at the assessment to see if you meet their marks before you start though and you’ll only sit the ones you need to.

Anon87 · 1 Apr 2021

Mattydo said:
There’s a misconception that enhanced is a set level. There is the national standard as set/agreed by the RSSB. Some TOC’s only need this. Some other TOC’s choose to set their own enhanced mark required in certain parts of the assessments. Say national is a grade C, TOC A might want you to get a C+ and TOC B might want grade A. In addition some TOCs might add other tests to those required. The VSE might be one of them (Avanti for example uses this as a sifting exam though, just online). GTR also requires enhanced but it just adds on the DFFT and you’ll sit it at the psychometrics centre. It varies.

All the usual with enhanced pass plus DFFT. Good luck. As I said one TOC’s enhanced mark isn’t the same as another. GTR will check at the assessment to see if you meet their marks before you start though and you’ll only sit the ones you need to.

Thank you for this - really adds clarity for me. The VSE therefore is pretty insignificant in respect of the rest of the assessment. I’ve just done some research and the toc that I failed it with are the only ones that use it out of the 6 tocs/focs within 60 mins of my house.

Mattydo · 1 Apr 2021

Pete87 said:
Thank you for this - really adds clarity for me. The VSE therefore is pretty insignificant in respect of the rest of the assessment. I’ve just done some research and the toc that I failed it with are the only ones that use it out of the 6 tocs/focs within 60 mins of my house.

No worries. I applied to a lot of TOC’s before I got my first offer. Only one required me to do a VSE. To be honest I did find it challenging and although I passed it I didn’t think I had. The trick is probably to get back on track quickly if you make a mistake. I now have a job as a trainee driver but the VSE had nothing to do with it.

Val3ntine · 1 Apr 2021

Pete87 said:
Thank you for this - really adds clarity for me. The VSE therefore is pretty insignificant in respect of the rest of the assessment. I’ve just done some research and the toc that I failed it with are the only ones that use it out of the 6 tocs/focs within 60 mins of my house.

Sounds great, best of luck and hope to hear some positive news soon regarding your journey

craigybagel · 1 Apr 2021

Pete87 said:
Thank for that Baz, appreciate your time.

Out of interest, do we know who actually does use the VSE?

I know Freightliner do. What about Transport for Wales?

To the best of my knowledge, TfW is enhanced but does not use VSE. They certainly didn't when I passed their assessments anyway.

MostlyHarmless · 1 Apr 2021

I failed the VSE with Southeastern but I'm in a talent pool with GWR. I'm not sure whether that means train driving is for me or not, but I'm going to give it a good go when the time (hopefully) comes

Anon87 · 1 Apr 2021

craigybagel said:
To the best of my knowledge, TfW is enhanced but does not use VSE. They certainly didn't when I passed their assessments anyway.

Thank you pal!

MostlyHarmless said:
I failed the VSE with Southeastern but I'm in a talent pool with GWR. I'm not sure whether that means train driving is for me or not, but I'm going to give it a good go when the time (hopefully) comes

Good for you and I’m sure you’ll smash it.

PupCuff · 2 Apr 2021

I'm not sure where this misconception that you can't improve your skills that the psychometrics test for comes from. If we took that approach with everything, nobody would ever develop any new skills. I accept there will be some cases where someone's initial ability to perform in the tests will be so low that the effort to improve those skills would be of little benefit towards their eventual ability to pass them (in the same way that there are some schoolchildren who regardless of how much time a teacher gives them they will only scrape a C in maths, for example) - but the majority of people are able to learn new things, develop techniques to improve their non-technical skills etc.

If anything, the positive attitude of identifying where one is weakest and taking the initiative to develop those skills off their own back I would say is more indicative of a good train driver than someone who fell out of the womb with an extraordinary ability to cross out a few dots on a piece of paper.

ainsworth74 · 2 Apr 2021

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baz962 · 2 Apr 2021

PupCuff said:
I'm not sure where this misconception that you can't improve your skills that the psychometrics test for comes from. If we took that approach with everything, nobody would ever develop any new skills. I accept there will be some cases where someone's initial ability to perform in the tests will be so low that the effort to improve those skills would be of little benefit towards their eventual ability to pass them (in the same way that there are some schoolchildren who regardless of how much time a teacher gives them they will only scrape a C in maths, for example) - but the majority of people are able to learn new things, develop techniques to improve their non-technical skills etc.

If anything, the positive attitude of identifying where one is weakest and taking the initiative to develop those skills off their own back I would say is more indicative of a good train driver than someone who fell out of the womb with an extraordinary ability to cross out a few dots on a piece of paper.

I think to be fair to everyone , it's not that you can't improve . The psychometric tests are designed to find the people that are best suited to the role and although you could improve , it defeats the purpose , hence two tries and usually getting the practice material a week before. These are tests of concentration and calm but quick responses. In an emergency or if you forgotten where the red signal is , no amount of practice will help you if you are a daydreamer. And if you have a fault and need to work it out or have to isolate a faulty item , they don't want you taking hour's to look it up and holding up service. These tests are for natural ability , not for endless practice.

PupCuff · 2 Apr 2021

baz962 said:
I think to be fair to everyone , it's not that you can't improve . The psychometric tests are designed to find the people that are best suited to the role and although you could improve , it defeats the purpose , hence two tries and usually getting the practice material a week before. These are tests of concentration and calm but quick responses. In an emergency or if you forgotten where the red signal is , no amount of practice will help you if you are a daydreamer. And if you have a fault and need to work it out or have to isolate a faulty item , they don't want you taking hour's to look it up and holding up service. These tests are for natural ability , not for endless practice.

If you were to join the police and had to do the bleep test, you don't think, well, I'll just turn up on the day and if I'm not fit enough to shuttle back and forth at the required intervals, well, that's it, I'm not cut out to be a policeman, you look at your current level of fitness and look at where you need to develop.

There will always be some people who can't do the assessments. It's a fact of life unfortunately, and those sort of people will almost certainly have some other qualities that would lead them down a different railway career path. However, most people will be able to bring their non-technical skills up to an acceptable standard to pass the psychometric assessments if they have a positive attitude towards self-improvement which is a key quality of a train driver. My message to folk is if it's something you really want to do, take a good long look (perhaps get a trusted friend or family member to share their thoughts) on the bits of the psychometrics where you're weakest, and then work out some techniques to develop them, be that using computer games to improve processing and response times, doing wordsearches to identify patterns, etc. Even if you don't end up getting a driver's job, being able to quickly and accurately read and interpret information, concentrate for long periods of time, quickly and accurately conduct repetitive tasks, have good short term memory etc are really useful life skills to develop which are useful in other occupations and hobbies too.

bouff34 · 2 Apr 2021

PupCuff said:
If you were to join the police and had to do the bleep test, you don't think, well, I'll just turn up on the day and if I'm not fit enough to shuttle back and forth at the required intervals, well, that's it, I'm not cut out to be a policeman, you look at your current level of fitness and look at where you need to develop.

There will always be some people who can't do the assessments. It's a fact of life unfortunately, and those sort of people will almost certainly have some other qualities that would lead them down a different railway career path. However, most people will be able to bring their non-technical skills up to an acceptable standard to pass the psychometric assessments if they have a positive attitude towards self-improvement which is a key quality of a train driver. My message to folk is if it's something you really want to do, take a good long look (perhaps get a trusted friend or family member to share their thoughts) on the bits of the psychometrics where you're weakest, and then work out some techniques to develop them, be that using computer games to improve processing and response times, doing wordsearches to identify patterns, etc. Even if you don't end up getting a driver's job, being able to quickly and accurately read and interpret information, concentrate for long periods of time, quickly and accurately conduct repetitive tasks, have good short term memory etc are really useful life skills to develop which are useful in other occupations and hobbies too.

Continuing this analogy, police officers or other emergency responders don't join their careers already with the ability to calmly assess a critical situation and respond appropriately... as a probationer you are guided and hopefully pick up the appropriate way to assess and respond. By the time you have ten or so years in that type of role you are very adept at it (there are always some exceptions to the rule!) So anyone that believes you can't modify or learn an appropriate way to improve your skills or abilities is wrong. You can always improve yourself if you can find the appropriate way to prompt that development. That is not to say that everyone will be able to get to the same specific standard.

LCC106 · 2 Apr 2021

How long ago did the OP originally take the tests? If it was before they changed they still have another stab at it.

ComUtoR · 2 Apr 2021

bouff34 said:
By the time you have ten or so years in that type of role you are very adept at it (there are always some exceptions to the rule!) So anyone that believes you can't modify or learn an appropriate way to improve your skills or abilities is wrong. You can always improve yourself if you can find the appropriate way to prompt that development. That is not to say that everyone will be able to get to the same specific standard.

The Railway doesn't have 10yrs to train each Driver. They want people who already have the aptitude to learn and also can't afford to waste money on people who will eventually drop out or potentially have an incident. These tests really do exist for other reason rather than just culling the applicants or weeding out the weak.

As to learning a skill over time. These tests are different. They are aptitude and psychometric tests. There is a large degree of truth in that you can't "practice" for them. They are "non technical" whereas skill based learning can be trained and learned over time. Non technical skills are more inate.

One of the other problems of course is those standards you mention. Everyone must achieve them. There is no lesser quality, lower level Driver, there is one standard for all.

Everyone should keep trying and take each opportunity they can.

baz962 · 2 Apr 2021

The point you are missing about the tests is that the companies don't want people who have practiced to the nth degree. That's why you get two goes and why you get the practice material a week ahead and why the practice material isn't the same as the actual tests. And by the way I'm not saying don't if that's what anyone wants. I wasn't having a go , just a bit of friendly advice and refereeing as people were starting to get at each other and I gave original advice to the op. But another point about the psychometric tests is that they identify people who can learn a lot of information in a short time frame. So you practice until you can scrape through the tests and get a job and then the training goes way over your head and you can't keep up. The tocs will help you a bit , but will cut you loose if you are way off the pace . If that's what you want then I respect that and it's an individual choice and go for it , just be mindful that you could possibly be unemployed.

Stigy · 2 Apr 2021

PupCuff said:
If you were to join the police and had to do the bleep test, you don't think, well, I'll just turn up on the day and if I'm not fit enough to shuttle back and forth at the required intervals, well, that's it, I'm not cut out to be a policeman, you look at your current level of fitness and look at where you need to develop.

There will always be some people who can't do the assessments. It's a fact of life unfortunately, and those sort of people will almost certainly have some other qualities that would lead them down a different railway career path. However, most people will be able to bring their non-technical skills up to an acceptable standard to pass the psychometric assessments if they have a positive attitude towards self-improvement which is a key quality of a train driver. My message to folk is if it's something you really want to do, take a good long look (perhaps get a trusted friend or family member to share their thoughts) on the bits of the psychometrics where you're weakest, and then work out some techniques to develop them, be that using computer games to improve processing and response times, doing wordsearches to identify patterns, etc. Even if you don't end up getting a driver's job, being able to quickly and accurately read and interpret information, concentrate for long periods of time, quickly and accurately conduct repetitive tasks, have good short term memory etc are really useful life skills to develop which are useful in other occupations and hobbies too.

The bleep test isn’t really comparable to psychometric assessments to be honest, as it’s physical fitness to do the job, which one can improve on quite easily. When you’re talking about a natural aptitude, it’s a bit more difficult. A better logic would have been the Police Officer aptitude tests if comparing to a train driver. In which case, they’re quite similar.

PupCuff · 2 Apr 2021

I'm conscious this is going off topic, so I'll conclude with - All I would say really to anyone considering applying to be a driver is, please try not to be too put off by folk who want to cast you onto the scrap pile before you've even set foot in an interview room. Some people taking that approach might be misinformed, some may not even be in the industry at all, some may even be one of a small handful of drivers who see themselves as above everyone else (it's only a very very tiny number but they do exist, and are typically the ones who also spread their 'expert advice' around the messroom about why you shouldn't salary sacrifice pensions or which kittens management are planning to slaughter this week). The only person who can hold you back from developing any skill, whether that's fixing your car, or being the guinness world record holder at crossing out groups of four dots on a piece of paper, is yourself - put the time and the positive attitude in to develop the skills and you'll come out a more developed person (whether or not that brings you to the standard required to pass the driver psychometrics).

Remember - there are roles on the railway other than driver as well, and what you might actually find as you look at developing your skills is that you fit more naturally into a different role. It's a really varied industry with (in my view) a place, somewhere, for pretty much anybody who has the right attitude. Once you're in, you'll naturally find supportive colleagues and managers who want to help you build skills and develop.

nottraindriver · 4 Apr 2021

So ive failed VSE once can I still become a train driver?

I would love to earn the high salary.

Do companies pay overtime ?

Inthe4foot · 4 Apr 2021

nottraindriver said:
So ive failed VSE once can I still become a train driver?

I would love to earn the high salary.

Do companies pay overtime ?

Failed Visual Search Exercise twice

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