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Light Engine movements / shunts at stations

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Bald Rick

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Good to see the old chap.

Where did the 86 wait to come back on to the front of an up service? On the Down at Halifax I guess - not much else around for it to be in the way?
 
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6Gman

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Worked in the PSB at Euston 1974-79, busy times. There was a Station 'Simplifier' sheet laying out all of the workings In and Out. The booked Loco workings were all shown as to what they were programmed to do next. When a train arrived the Description in the Train Describer at the Buffer stops end was changed from the Incoming Train, to show the next working of the Inward Loco, 0G44, to work 1G44 etc. The Train Description at the country end would be put in for the outgoing train. All these numbers were put in manually. There would be frequent changes to the booked engine workings if they needed to be put on different workings, or visit Willesden DED, these alterations notified to the Box by the 'Engine Arranger' sat in the Yard Supervisors Office in the Parcels Dock. There would also be a Station Daily Orders sheet listing additional services or alterations to programmed movements.
And, of course, us lot in the Diagramming Office would throw it all up in the air if there were any Reliefs running ! :D
 

306024

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Good to see the old chap.

Where did the 86 wait to come back on to the front of an up service? On the Down at Halifax I guess - not much else around for it to be in the way?

The normal method was for the 86 to sit in the middle road behind CO306. Up Norwich comes in, 47 goes up to Halifax Jn to crossover and return to the country end loco siding ready for its next down working. 86 shunts from middle road into the tunnel and back onto train. There must have been a shunt signal just in the mouth of the tunnel to allow that which has since been removed.
 

Bald Rick

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The normal method was for the 86 to sit in the middle road behind CO306. Up Norwich comes in, 47 goes up to Halifax Jn to crossover and return to the country end loco siding ready for its next down working. 86 shunts from middle road into the tunnel and back onto train. There must have been a shunt signal just in the mouth of the tunnel to allow that which has since been removed.

Thanks, now you say it I remember it from my one and only trip to Norwich in that period.
 

ac6000cw

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That Ipswich video also illustrates how much safety practices have changed since then - the (human) shunter has no hi-vis clothing, no head protection and is standing in the '6 foot' between the train and a running line (the up through?) some of the time.

Having spent many hours watching loco changes at places like B'ham New Street back then, I often thought that being a shunter looked like one of the more dangerous jobs on the railway... (and one reason why the Americans mandated the use of automatic couplers over a century ago)
 

edwin_m

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That Ipswich video also illustrates how much safety practices have changed since then - the (human) shunter has no hi-vis clothing, no head protection and is standing in the '6 foot' between the train and a running line (the up through?) some of the time.

Having spent many hours watching loco changes at places like B'ham New Street back then, I often thought that being a shunter looked like one of the more dangerous jobs on the railway... (and one reason why the Americans mandated the use of automatic couplers over a century ago)
Shunting trains is indeed highly dangerous. But even with the American freight couplers they have to go in between to connect the brake pipes.
 

306024

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Yes the safety aspects would cause concern today. Great Eastern practice was for loco coupling and uncoupling to be done by ‘secondmen’, working with a driver on the same diagram. Don’t think there were many, if any ‘secondwomen‘ in those days. The drivers diagrams were shown as ‘Dvr’ if single manned, but as ’Men’ if double manned, all very politically incorrect.

Locos would be driven from the rear cab to save changing ends, all accepted practice back then.
 

341o2

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Kings Cross in loco hauled days was the most cumbersome. Main line locos appeared unable to do a full day's work without refuelling, which was done at a small facility on the west side of the station. With the platform ends pretty hard up against the entrances to Gasworks Tunnel, it was not possible to even get there in one shunt from most of the platforms in the centre/east side of the station, from platform 1 say it was out into just inside one of the eastern tunnels, back into a convenient platform end, out to just inside one of the western tunnels, back into the loco spur, and to the fuel point. For the return train the reverse then applied. Class 31 pilots on stock also did the forward-back-forward-back to get between bringing one set of stock in, and then taking another out. Went on all day
The entry to Kings Cross was known as the throat, for up trains, most of the platforms and aforementioned fuelling point had to be via the up relief. The up slow and main only served (from memory) York Rd and platforms 1 to 4. Deltics seemed to be more smoky in later years, the clouds of exhaust smoke in Gasworks tunnel....phew

Yes the safety aspects would cause concern today. Great Eastern practice was for loco coupling and uncoupling to be done by ‘secondmen’, working with a driver on the same diagram. Don’t think there were many, if any ‘secondwomen‘ in those days. The drivers diagrams were shown as ‘Dvr’ if single manned, but as ’Men’ if double manned, all very politically incorrect.

Locos would be driven from the rear cab to save changing ends, all accepted practice back then.
Women were not permitted to be guards as well because in an emergency there might be the need to drop the buckeye coupling and use the emergency screw coupler instead
 
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30907

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Women were not permitted to be guards as well because in an emergency there might be the need to drop the buckeye coupling and use the emergency screw coupler instead
Slightly OT, but when the first woman SM (or similar) was appointed on the SR at Redhill I recall questions being asked about how she could do this task.
 

AndrewE

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Slightly OT, but when the first woman SM (or similar) was appointed on the SR at Redhill I recall questions being asked about how she could do this task.
I presume you mean secondman rather than Station Master... I would have thought that dropping the buckeye would take less effort than getting it back up. Maybe you need to do an initial raise (with a shoulder?)
OTOH I have seen grown men struggle to lift a screw-coupling into place, and be completely defeated by a vacuum brake pipe which wasn't orientated quite right. That really does call for a second operative...
 

Cheshire Scot

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I would have thought that dropping the buckeye would take less effort than getting it back up. Maybe you need to do an initial raise (with a shoulder?)
Forearm. Unless of very short stature it would be difficult to get your shoulder under it and even more difficult to pull it away to let it drop.
 

AndrewE

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At Glasgow Queen Street it would act as a banker for the departing train all the way to Cowlairs.
I have just come across film of the Night Ferry Sleeper train being banked by the empty stock loco at Victoria.
about 13 1/2 mins in.
 

75A

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Forearm. Unless of very short stature it would be difficult to get your shoulder under it and even more difficult to pull it away to let it drop.
Indeed it was the forearm.
As a Traction Trainee in 1980 I was was instructed how to drop and raise the buckeye on a class 33 @ Hither Green.

We had a lady in her early 20's @ Brighton who had completed this course/
 

Ken H

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No-one has mentioned release points (I think they are called). I am sure there were some at Bradford Interchange. Train pulled in, passengers got off. Loco pushed train back a little. uncouple. loco back to buffers, then over a crossover to the adjacent platform line. run round. back onto train and push it back to buffer stops ready for the passengers. Ideal for Bradford with few loco hauled trains.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I'm sure Manchester Piccadilly had some of them can't say if I ever saw them being used.
The loco release crossover on P5&6 is still there - or at least I assume it still is as I haven't been there in the COVID era.
I do recall seeing it used occasionally years back. Turnover locos were the norm for Euston and Birmingham (and beyond) trains but if for some reason one wasn't available the loco would run round. I recall also seeing it used for a DVT set, presumably due to a fault on the DVT, to get the loco onto the Euston end of the set.
This might require a change to the booked platform as I only recall that one crossover although there might have been more in earlier years.
 

jfollows

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I'm sure Manchester Piccadilly had some of them can't say if I ever saw them being used.
Used daily when I travelled in the 1970s for the Harwich Boat Train, which arrived at 13:18 (in 1977), stopped short, detached the diesel engine which then used the crossover to pass the stock on the adjacent track, then went on to the front of the 15:15 departure. So one platform was occupied for two hours and the adjacent platform had to be free for the loco movement.

Electric locomotives generally went to the Midland Engine Siding, which still exists. But the operation wasn't simple as others have alluded to - if a class 87 was released it couldn't then be used on vacuum braked stock, and at the time of my memories there was still quite a lot of that about.

There was an East Engine Siding also, but that will have stopped being used with the end of the electric services in 1970. I don't recall if it was used for the Class 31 services which ran to Sheffield a few years later or not.

EDIT My memory is that the train used platform 5 and that therefore platform 6 had to be free for some of the period between its arrival and departure to allow the engine to run round. Of course this was normally done as soon as possible after arrival so that I'd often see the engine grumbling away on the front of the stock. My favoured trains home, if I was off school early, were of course the 14:12, 14:23 or 15:35 loco-hauled services to Macclesfield.
 
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Whisky Papa

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No-one has mentioned release points (I think they are called). I am sure there were some at Bradford Interchange. Train pulled in, passengers got off. Loco pushed train back a little. uncouple. loco back to buffers, then over a crossover to the adjacent platform line. run round. back onto train and push it back to buffer stops ready for the passengers. Ideal for Bradford with few loco hauled trains.

I've never seen the one at Manchester Piccadilly used, but the run round on P1 at Bradford Interchange was certainly still operational when I was working there (three years ago now). It was used for at least one steam excursion using it during the time I was there, on a Saturday in late 2017 I think?
 

Ken H

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The loco release crossover on P5&6 is still there - or at least I assume it still is as I haven't been there in the COVID era.
I do recall seeing it used occasionally years back. Turnover locos were the norm for Euston and Birmingham (and beyond) trains but if for some reason one wasn't available the loco would run round. I recall also seeing it used for a DVT set, presumably due to a fault on the DVT, to get the loco onto the Euston end of the set.
This might require a change to the booked platform as I only recall that one crossover although there might have been more in earlier years.
Capture.PNG

Snip from raildar. looks like the release still there on 6 & 5.
Cant find any others
 

dazzler

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No-one has mentioned release points (I think they are called). I am sure there were some at Bradford Interchange. Train pulled in, passengers got off. Loco pushed train back a little. uncouple. loco back to buffers, then over a crossover to the adjacent platform line. run round. back onto train and push it back to buffer stops ready for the passengers. Ideal for Bradford with few loco hauled trains.

There used to be a set between platforms 2 & 3 at Norwich (Thorpe) in the days when the London service was class 47s on Mk 2s . The service would arrive in platform 3, all the way to the buffers, then the station pilot (Class 03) would draw the coaching stock out far enough for the class 47 to use the loco release crossover. The 03 would then propel the coaches back to the stops, whilst the loco nipped over to the fuelling point.
If the arrival was into any other platform, the 03 had to draw the coaches out of the station (along the Great Yarmouth/Lowestoft/Sheringham line) to release the loco, then propel back into the platform. Sometimes the stock would be going to Crown Point depot, so the loco would follow it out along platform 3 - cabbed a couple of 47s like that, the length of Norwich platform 3!
 

Welshman

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No-one has mentioned release points (I think they are called). I am sure there were some at Bradford Interchange. Train pulled in, passengers got off. Loco pushed train back a little. uncouple. loco back to buffers, then over a crossover to the adjacent platform line. run round. back onto train and push it back to buffer stops ready for the passengers. Ideal for Bradford with few loco hauled trains.
Interestingly enough, whilst one was provided at the later Bradford Interchange, when regular steam-haulage had been abolished, there were none at the former Joint Bradford Exchange, neither on the L&Y nor GN side.

I do remember, though, that the L&Y Joint provided one at Leeds Central. This used a middle, non-platform line between platforms 2 & 3, with access from either, meaning an engine could be released whilst there was still a train occupying the other.
 

ac6000cw

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Looking at https://signalmaps.co.uk/#wherry:881.5 it appears platform 2 at Great Yarmouth might still have a loco release facility - it was certainly still in use the last time GA ran summer Saturday loco-hauled trains through to there from London (a 47 was attached at Norwich, which then ran around at Gt. Yarmouth).

I assumed that the capability would get removed when the recent re-signalling happened, but it looks like it has survived.

Another reasonably common way of running around trains at smaller terminal stations was propelling the whole train out of the station into a loop beyond the end of the platforms, running it around, and propelling it back into the station for departure. Maybe more common at seaside resorts with excursions and summer saturday extras to which needed to clear the platforms for other trains.
 
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D6130

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Interestingly enough, whilst one was provided at the later Bradford Interchange, when regular steam-haulage had been abolished, there were none at the former Joint Bradford Exchange, neither on the L&Y nor GN side.
The one at Bradford Interchange was provided primarily for the locos of parcels trains to run round. At one time there was a huge parcels traffic at both the main Bradford stations - primarily for the Grattan's mail order catalogue despatches.
 

Taunton

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At Taunton, in the final days of loco-hauled local services in the 1960s, there was a pilot duty at the west end which handled the various terminating trains, of which there were a substantial number during the day from both directions. Arrivals from Minehead, Barnstaple and Exeter locals preferably used the Up Relief platform (sometimes called on behind a recently-arrived through express), and were then pulled back over the crossovers right across the layout by the pilot. Train engine then detached and ran into the shed, pilot then propelled the stock into one of the departure bays. Arrivals from Bristol/Yeovil etc pulled forward to the same place, the pilot then hooked on and took them back over the same crossovers, through the station, and propelled into the Up bay. It was one of the last steam workings there until the steam shed closed in 1964, thereafter an 08 shunter took over for the Hymek-hauled locals. DMU locals followed the same path, without the additional loco of course. The steam pilot wasn't always a pannier tank, sometimes a Hall was used.

All this shunting across all tracks was a particular nuisance on Summer Saturdays, so locos and stock were then through-routed where possible, Yeovil to Barnstaple and v.v., thr train (very) shortly after arrival pulled forward and then backed into the bay.
 

Dai Corner

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Cardiff-Portsmouth trains reverse at Bristol Temple Meads. To facilitate this loco spurs were provided st the east end of platforms 5 and 7.

The incoming loco would detach from the train in the platform and the outgoing one would shunt from the spur onto the the other end. After departure the incoming loco would wait in the spur for its next duty.

I think I read that the Cl 40 that was there last week used one of the spurs. Possibly the last ever, assuming they're going as part of the remodelling?
 

65477

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Remaining at Ipswich in the early 1970's there was an interesting working very early in the morning, by early I mean 02:30 ish. A train left Peterborough at around 23:30 with both passenger and postal vehicles. At Ipswich it was combined with a train from Norwich which involved a certain amount of shunting. I did actually travel Peterborough to Liverpool Street on this and I recall this involving an 03. As you were kept on the train at Ipswich I don't know if I actually had 03 haulage on the main line.
 

ilkestonian

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I'm not sure if it's still available, but a few years ago a computer signalling simulation called simsig was available. Some scenarios had to be purchased but some were free, among which was a superb Euston sim, emulating (IIRC) a timetable from the 1970s.

You could run it in real time over a 24 hour period and many of the points mentioned in this thread regarding Euston ops were covered. I soon found you needed to change the description for an incoming loco to identify it's next working, for example.

It took some mastering, but having managed a 24 hour shift (not in one go, I hasten to add; it could be saved at any point) it was very satisfying to complete it.
 

Inversnecky

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I'm not sure if it's still available, but a few years ago a computer signalling simulation called simsig was available. Some scenarios had to be purchased but some were free, among which was a superb Euston sim, emulating (IIRC) a timetable from the 1970s.

You could run it in real time over a 24 hour period and many of the points mentioned in this thread regarding Euston ops were covered. I soon found you needed to change the description for an incoming loco to identify it's next working, for example.

It took some mastering, but having managed a 24 hour shift (not in one go, I hasten to add; it could be saved at any point) it was very satisfying to complete it.

Still available: https://www.simsig.co.uk/
 

Llama

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Interestingly enough, whilst one was provided at the later Bradford Interchange, when regular steam-haulage had been abolished, there were none at the former Joint Bradford Exchange, neither on the L&Y nor GN side.
Two engine release crossovers were provided at Bradford Interchange, the one between platforms 3 & 4 (Bradford B GF) was removed only a few years ago although I think it had been officially out of use since the early 2000s or earlier.

Bradford A GF, next to platform 1, was kept when the station was remodelled, although the runround siding (now 'Bradford Engine Release Line') is used for stabling of units - usually GC 180s but more recently Northern units. The only time I saw it used for its intended purpose was when the scrap train from Laisterdyke (McIntyre's siding) used it to run round, that scrap train hasn't run for about ten years now though as far as I know. There is still a stop board on the BERL annoted "class 60/66 stop here" although the last few times I saw the scrap train it was worked by a class 37.
 
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