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Best and worst refurbished train since privatisation

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Top 3 I reckon was best would be GNER Mallard, Connex Class 319 (brighton express) and Stansted Epress class 317/7

For the worst I'm not sure, propably any train that gets fitted with ironing board seats
Best: TPE 185
Worst: Haymarket 158, i'd like to a review of one just now and that is that it is total pish
 
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fgwrich

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Best: TPE 185
Worst: Haymarket 158, i'd like to a review of one just now and that is that it is total pish
I find it impressive that ScotRail has the 158 fleet with the most contrast. The Haymarket sets were awful when refurbished by NX ScotRail (I don’t think First did anything to them?), and have remained pretty poor with the ScotRail refurbishment which saw luggage space increased at the detriment of the seat spacing. By contrast, the First ScotRail refurbished “Inverness” sets set the benchmark for how all 158s should be refurbished, from the perfect seat layout to the plentiful Luggage space, down to the use of the Grammer IC3000.
 

Journeyman

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I find it impressive that ScotRail has the 158 fleet with the most contrast. The Haymarket sets were awful when refurbished by NX ScotRail (I don’t think First did anything to them?), and have remained pretty poor with the ScotRail refurbishment which saw luggage space increased at the detriment of the seat spacing. By contrast, the First ScotRail refurbished “Inverness” sets set the benchmark for how all 158s should be refurbished, from the perfect seat layout to the plentiful Luggage space, down to the use of the Grammer IC3000.
I did the whole length of the Far North line in an Inverness refurb not long after they appeared, and it really was a very satisfactory train for a line like that. The window alignment in particular is spot-on.
 

Bletchleyite

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I did the whole length of the Far North line in an Inverness refurb not long after they appeared, and it really was a very satisfactory train for a line like that. The window alignment in particular is spot-on.

The purple colour scheme also exuded quality to me, particularly when added to the premium seats.

For Standard class, I'd say that was the best refurb without a doubt. The First Class was "sham" 2+2, though, and always declassified anyway, I guess it was only there for if they substituted for 170s towards the Central Belt.
 

Journeyman

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The First Class was "sham" 2+2, though, and always declassified anyway, I guess it was only there for if they substituted for 170s towards the Central Belt.
Most people didn't realise this, and it was always a good way to get a table to yourself.
 

Bletchleyite

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Talking of 158s, while the seating didn't win as it was just the originals with new covers and cushions, I would go with the TPE refurb as by far the best colour scheme:


Seriously classy. And the "fake wood" may have been my idea as I suggested it in a survey! :)
 

yorksrob

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Talking of 158s, while the seating didn't win as it was just the originals with new covers and cushions, I would go with the TPE refurb as by far the best colour scheme:


Seriously classy. And the "fake wood" may have been my idea as I suggested it in a survey! :)

Yes, I always liked that decor.
 

greatvoyager

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Talking of 158s, while the seating didn't win as it was just the originals with new covers and cushions, I would go with the TPE refurb as by far the best colour scheme:


Seriously classy. And the "fake wood" may have been my idea as I suggested it in a survey! :)
That is definitely one of the better 158 refurbs, I enjoyed them when they were around, although as I was only young at the time, I was confused by the fake wood.
 

northernbelle

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The purple colour scheme also exuded quality to me, particularly when added to the premium seats.

For Standard class, I'd say that was the best refurb without a doubt. The First Class was "sham" 2+2, though, and always declassified anyway, I guess it was only there for if they substituted for 170s towards the Central Belt.
It was a quality refurbishment - the only bugbear for me were that the seats were so high backed on a route that is one of the most scenic in the country - it has served to reduce the open feel and the views in a way that's been preserved on the 156s and, indeed, makes them such a pleasant ride on the WHL.
 

Bletchleyite

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It was a quality refurbishment - the only bugbear for me were that the seats were so high backed on a route that is one of the most scenic in the country - it has served to reduce the open feel and the views in a way that's been preserved on the 156s and, indeed, makes them such a pleasant ride on the WHL.

Plenty of tables, though, all aligned with windows so you can see out just fine. Airline seats are a bit claustrophobic but also very private.
 

trebor79

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Talking of 158s, while the seating didn't win as it was just the originals with new covers and cushions, I would go with the TPE refurb as by far the best colour scheme:


Seriously classy. And the "fake wood" may have been my idea as I suggested it in a survey! :)
I r ally like the original seats. Comfortable and low backed so you get a good view. Was very pleasantly surprised when the sole EMR unit with the original seats turned up to whisk me to Peterborough one morning in 2019. Didn't realise there was a declassified first class section, that would have been the icing on the cake!
 

Bletchleyite

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I r ally like the original seats. Comfortable and low backed so you get a good view. Was very pleasantly surprised when the sole EMR unit with the original seats turned up to whisk me to Peterborough one morning in 2019. Didn't realise there was a declassified first class section, that would have been the icing on the cake!

The problem with original 158 seats is that the combination of them being steeply raked and very thick-backed means there is only legroom for midgets (or people with very skinny legs who can get them in the "niche") in the airline seats. I meanwhile physically can't sit down in an airline seat and get a game of "kneesie" at a table. It is quite telling that the Northern 158 refurb (the one with ironing boards) has near enough not changed the original seating layout at all (give or take a couple of rows to get the required priority seating in) and legroom is super-generous.

They are comfortable enough in table seats with only one other person diagonally opposite, though.

It's a flaw with the FISA LEAN as well (and a few others e.g. the Pendolino and Voyager seats) - the Class 175/180 seat was a better design in this regard by putting the niches at the outside edges of the seats and the thick support in the middle, recognising that (a) men are taller than women, and (b) most men can't comfortably sit with their knees together.
 

greatvoyager

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I quite liked the refurbishment of the South West Trains 158/159 units back when the ex TransPennine units joined.
 

DustyBin

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I’m on board a 185 at the minute, I haven’t been on one for ages and I’d forgotten how comfortable they are. I’m not sure what seats they have but they’re infinitely more comfortable* than the ones in the ‘Azuma’ I’ve just changed from. I really can’t get away with those Grammer(?) seats at all, I actually prefer the ironing boards, which I thought were the lowest of the low....

*Seat comfort is subjective of course!
 

greatvoyager

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I’m on board a 185 at the minute, I haven’t been on one for ages and I’d forgotten how comfortable they are. I’m not sure what seats they have but they’re infinitely more comfortable* than the ones in the ‘Azuma’ I’ve just changed from. I really can’t get away with those Grammer(?) seats at all, I actually prefer the ironing boards, which I thought were the lowest of the low....

*Seat comfort is subjective of course!
185s are comfortable, and have a nicer interior compared to other operators.
 

Bletchleyite

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185s are comfortable, and have a nicer interior compared to other operators.

185s have the Grammer E3000 seat. The one you dislike in the 80x is the Fainsa Sophia. They are remarkably similar in concept (which is why I thought I'd like the Sophia until I actually sat in one), being a simple metal frame with a relatively thin cushion with small headrest "wings", but the Fainsa has a couple of considerable design flaws that make it uncomfortable to some, most notably the shape of the base.
 

Wolfie

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The worst refurbishments are any of the ones which involved simply taking the TOC's branding colours and splattering them around unsympathetically. By far the most egregious offenders for this were the Sprinters and Pacers of Wessex Trains, First Great Western and Serco-Abellio Northern. I also think the 165s and 166s feel pretty grim but I'm putting that down to them being worn out more than anything.

The best outcome, I'd say TransPennine Express 185s. The onboard ambience is absolutely fantastic.

But the most transformative would probably have to be either the SWR 455 or the Retanus project - honorable mentions go to FGW HSTs (though maybe not transformative in a good way!), ATW and ARN 158s, possibly even the ARN 323s though they didn't get a seat replacement which they probably could have done with.

I have high hopes for the Avanti pendolino refurbishment as well, though time will tell.

SWR= South Western Railway; FGW = First Great Western; ARN = Arriva Rail North ("Northern by Arriva")
Which class 165s? I find the Chiltern ones pleasant enough.

Lots of airline seats in those interiors!

To me those seats are too high. I'm tall, but even I find that the seat is significantly higher than my head, making the interior claustrophobic
All about crash resistance. The future l am afraid.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Which class 165s? I find the Chiltern ones pleasant enough.

I find them rather Spartan. I think blue and red as a colour scheme was a very poor choice, it has all the charisma of the car deck on a cross channel ferry. The 2+2 seats are nice though. (I believe the 3+2 bit was kept as otherwise equipment would need to be moved at very high cost).

All about crash resistance. The future l am afraid.

Not necessarily. The Fainsa Sophia is for good reasons often maligned, but one upside of it is that it is relatively low-backed by modern standards. And you can mitigate it a bit - the similarly maligned ironing board does so by tapering the seat shape at the top so you can see round it, as does the smaller headrest offered for the IC3000 by Grammer, which the Welsh units use. It doesn't look as luxury but it is (to me) just as comfortable and less claustrophobic.
 

Wolfie

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The best must surely be the SWT CIGs and BIGs, followed by the VEPs, and then the CEPs and BEPs.... None of this slidey door nonsense thank you! :D
Archaic junk that should never have been built let alone still on the network into the 21st century.

I find them rather Spartan. I think blue and red as a colour scheme was a very poor choice, it has all the charisma of the car deck on a cross channel ferry. The 2+2 seats are nice though. (I believe the 3+2 bit was kept as otherwise equipment would need to be moved at very high cost).



Not necessarily. The Fainsa Sophia is for good reasons often maligned, but one upside of it is that it is relatively low-backed by modern standards. And you can mitigate it a bit - the similarly maligned ironing board does so by tapering the seat shape at the top so you can see round it, as does the smaller headrest offered for the IC3000 by Grammer, which the Welsh units use. It doesn't look as luxury but it is (to me) just as comfortable and less claustrophobic.
Fair comment. I guess that there's high back and then there's HIGH back....

The best 455s would have SWT seating and layout, with the improved ceilings and lighting of the Southern units.
Agreed. With that combo only the absence of aircon would really hint that you weren't on a pretty much brand new train.
 

Aictos

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Best: TPE 185
Worst: Haymarket 158, i'd like to a review of one just now and that is that it is total pish
I disagree about the Haymarket Class 158s being "pish" or whatever that word is meant to represent.

Now I think that the Waverly services are operated using Haymarket Class 158s, I'm open to being corrected though.

As it was, I had travelled to Galashiels in Autumn of 2019 and one of the services was a Class 158 with a refurbishment that I believe was a improvement on the Class 158s that I last used on the Central Belt with at seat power sockets and USB charging points too.

That being unexpected was something I certainly appreciated and as such are far from the worse refurbishment suggested.
 

Wolfie

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It's often enough to make a big difference, though.
I agree, psychologically new moquette and a change in colours can make a massive difference. I was just curious if anything major had actually needed to be done to pretty new stock.
 

fgwrich

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I agree, psychologically new moquette and a change in colours can make a massive difference. I was just curious if anything major had actually needed to be done to pretty new stock.

The WMR 172 refresh is only really carrying on the old Tyseley Tradition of Carpets and Covers, The WMR nee London Midland 170s were the same, with their refurbishment consisting of nothing more than a carpet and covers job, yet it looked far more nicer than the the former CT interior.
 

greatvoyager

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The WMR 172 refresh is only really carrying on the old Tyseley Tradition of Carpets and Covers, The WMR nee London Midland 170s were the same, with their refurbishment consisting of nothing more than a carpet and covers job, yet it looked far more nicer than the the former CT interior.
It always gives a fresher feel.
 

DustyBin

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Archaic junk that should never have been built let alone still on the network into the 21st century.

Did you ever travel on them? The VEPs should have been MK2 based admittedly but the older units (and certainly the CEPs/BEPs) were based on the then current B.R carriage design i.e. the MK1. They managed to provide efficient, comfortable and very reliable transport for 40+ years so they can’t have been that bad....
 
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