Trivia - timetable padding

flitwickbeds · 8 May 2021

This train departed Penhelig 26m late but arrived at its destination 3 minutes early, two hours later.

Realtime Trains - 1655 Machynlleth to Pwllheli

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What other examples do you know of where the timetable padding is so extreme that this would be possible?

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lxfe_mxtterz · 8 May 2021

I remember travelling on a southbound Virgin Trains service to London via the West Midlands which waited for an awfully long time at Wolverhampton - must've been something like 15-20 minutes. Unsure of whether this was/is a regular thing or just a feature of one or a few services, but it must've given quite a bit of recovery time to any services running late, I expect?

Megafuss · 8 May 2021

Pre covid, the Waterloo to Poole stoppers had 25 minutes wait time.at Brockenhurst (to facilitate overtaking). It still exists at the moment.

Realtime Trains - 2B51 1749 Winchester to Poole

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Pumbaa · 8 May 2021

It’s not padding though is it. It’s booked time waiting for passing moves that were not required, either on account of the late running allowing the passing to happen in more fortuitous locations, or the other trains not running.

Both other examples are also “booked” to help construct the timetable. In almost all instances, it’s unlikely the performance of other trains wouldn’t be affected if the services in question were late running.

scotrail170407 · 8 May 2021

Realtime Trains - 1B35 1356 Aberdeen to Edinburgh

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

One from a HST bash i did today, earliest i’ve ever arrived into a destination on an HST

Service left leuchars 2 minutes late, arrived into Edinburgh 20 minutes early. On Saturday’s only, an inverness to edinburgh semi fast hst (1B31) is normally booked infront of this express from aberdeen (1B35) and so has a lot of allowances, but today 1B31 was so late that 1B35 got infront of it and just got the path all the way through to Haymarket from Leuchars without stopping

Class 170101 · 8 May 2021

lxfe_mxtterz said:
I remember travelling on a southbound Virgin Trains service to London via the West Midlands which waited for an awfully long time at Wolverhampton - must've been something like 15-20 minutes. Unsure of whether this was/is a regular thing or just a feature of one or a few services, but it must've given quite a bit of recovery time to any services running late, I expect?

Quite regular and part of the Train Planning Rules to ensure reliable running.

johntea · 8 May 2021

A few Leeds - Manchester (or vice versa) late night services I've been on in the past were often timetabled in to allow them to go a diversionary route (route knowledge maybe?), only for them to end up using the direct route instead, so if you were using one to get to Manchester Airport in particular you had chance to get off at Manchester Piccadilly, find a late night food venue, eat your meal, arrive back at Piccadilly and probably find the service still wasn't due to depart to the airport for another few minutes

On a slightly unrelated note I've also been on services with broken toilets and they've been allowed to stop in stations slightly longer than scheduled to allow passengers (and train staff!) the chance to get off and spend a penny in the station facilities!

apinnard · 9 May 2021

There’s loads on the MML fast services. I’ve been on a 222 that arrived into Wellingborough 9 minutes early.

Gloster · 9 May 2021

About five years ago I compared contemporary train times in Cornwall with those in 1973 (or 1975). What I can remember is that the present day trains were timetabled to take an average of around six minutes longer to reach Penzance than the 1970s ones; this took into account the various stopping patterns. Virtually all the extra time was timetabled west of St Erth.

Ianno87 · 9 May 2021

flitwickbeds said:
This train departed Penhelig 26m late but arrived at its destination 3 minutes early, two hours later.

Realtime Trains - 1655 Machynlleth to Pwllheli

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What other examples do you know of where the timetable padding is so extreme that this would be possible?

I detest the term "padding". Excess Time is almost always there for a good reason, not just because the timetable planners feel like it.

steamybrian · 9 May 2021

flitwickbeds said:
This train departed Penhelig 26m late but arrived at its destination 3 minutes early, two hours later.

Realtime Trains - 1655 Machynlleth to Pwllheli

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What other examples do you know of where the timetable padding is so extreme that this would be possible?

I agree that this train was timed to wait for to pass trains at Tywyn and Harlech- crossing points on a single line

The Planner · 9 May 2021

lxfe_mxtterz said:
I remember travelling on a southbound Virgin Trains service to London via the West Midlands which waited for an awfully long time at Wolverhampton - must've been something like 15-20 minutes. Unsure of whether this was/is a regular thing or just a feature of one or a few services, but it must've given quite a bit of recovery time to any services running late, I expect?

Class 170101 said:
Quite regular and part of the Train Planning Rules to ensure reliable running.

Done as part of the timetable when the old Scotland New St and Wolves Euston paths were joined together. They were around 15 minutes apart so it just sits there to keep the structure, saved trying to mess with the timetable unnecessarily.

Taunton · 9 May 2021

Ianno87 said:
I detest the term "padding". Excess Time is almost always there for a good reason, not just because the timetable planners feel like it.

This sets aside the considerable increase that's taken place ever since last station punctuality had to be reported to the Ministry.

Well-known bizarre one is the Bidston to Wrexham line, takes under an hour, two shuttling trains provide the hourly service. But the padding (which it is) before the final destination leads to the nonsense situation of the train being scheduled to arrive after it should leave on the return journey.

In an associated area, I notice that the old practice of recovering delays no longer happens. Used to be that the crews were well up for getting time back, driving hard to the line limit, minimising station stop time, etc. But not any more it seems. If the train gets delayed the rest of the journey continues with the same lethargy as always.

hexagon789 · 9 May 2021

I remember the first time I travelled on a Pendolino, we left Watford Junction on time and arrived into Euston 13 mins early.

Taunton said:
This sets aside the considerable increase that's taken place ever since last station punctuality had to be reported to the Ministry.

Well-known bizarre one is the Bidston to Wrexham line, takes under an hour, two shuttling trains provide the hourly service. But the padding (which it is) before the final destination leads to the nonsense situation of the train being scheduled to arrive after it should leave on the return journey.

In an associated area, I notice that the old practice of recovering delays no longer happens. Used to be that the crews were well up for getting time back, driving hard to the line limit, minimising station stop time, etc. But not any more it seems. If the train gets delayed the rest of the journey continues with the same lethargy as always.

Probably because there is no incentive to make up time and if drivers misjudge something such as braking distances by running harder they will get in trouble, so no point pushing things.

Whenever I've been on a late running train I have never noticed a driver accelerate harder or brake later in a bid to make up time, the driving technique always seems unaltered and time is only make up through reduced station dwells or recovery margins.

swt_passenger · 9 May 2021

Megafuss said:
Pre covid, the Waterloo to Poole stoppers had 25 minutes wait time.at Brockenhurst (to facilitate overtaking). It still exists at the moment.

Realtime Trains - 2B51 1749 Winchester to Poole

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

As you say it’s “waiting”, because it’s designed for changing between fast and stopping services. It’s effectively 3 separate down direction services that happen to be operated by the same train. Not connected at all to the very misused term “padding”…

chrish2 · 9 May 2021

Taunton said:
In an associated area, I notice that the old practice of recovering delays no longer happens. Used to be that the crews were well up for getting time back, driving hard to the line limit, minimising station stop time, etc. But not any more it seems. If the train gets delayed the rest of the journey continues with the same lethargy as always.

Anecdotally my recent journey on the AWC backs that up, 20 mins delay on route recovered to 13 mins delay. Of course there may be factors at play that prevented this but with no calls after Crew (96 mins from Eustion) in the past there was a chance to fully recover the delay (and you tend to "feel" it on a Pendolino).

Mcr Warrior · 9 May 2021

Any reason why most long distance trains from Stockport into Manchester Piccadilly are timetabled to take several minutes longer to do the same non-stop run than they are in the other direction from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport?

Class 170101 · 9 May 2021

Mcr Warrior said:
Any reason why most long distance trains from Stockport into Manchester Piccadilly are timetabled to take several minutes longer to do the same non-stop run than they are in the other direction from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport?

Public differential added upon approach to destination most likely.

Esker-pades · 9 May 2021

flitwickbeds said:
This train departed Penhelig 26m late but arrived at its destination 3 minutes early, two hours later.

Realtime Trains - 1655 Machynlleth to Pwllheli

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What other examples do you know of where the timetable padding is so extreme that this would be possible?

So, the example there is terrible if you want to talk about padding. First, there's the longer dwells at various passing loops: 6 at Tywyn, 8 at Harlech. Those dwells are required to make the timetable work if the trains were running on time. So that's 12 minutes accounted for.

Then the request stops. How many did the train need to stop at? Every request stop not stopped at is a time saving. There's also the stations currently closed due to social distancing requirements. Still in the timetable as stops, but passed because of the rules.

Finally, performance allowances and differentials tend to be added at the end of a route. If those aren't needed, that's time gained back.

The Planner · 9 May 2021

chrish2 said:
Anecdotally my recent journey on the AWC backs that up, 20 mins delay on route recovered to 13 mins delay. Of course there may be factors at play that prevented this but with no calls after Crew (96 mins from Eustion) in the past there was a chance to fully recover the delay (and you tend to "feel" it on a Pendolino).

If there were no TSRs on then that is feasible as you make up time due to the engineering recovery allowances not being used.

Class 170101 said:
Public differential added upon approach to destination most likely.

This is why the argument is often futile as people assume the public timetable is the one that determines it all. Blame the TOCs for public differentials not the planners.

Mcr Warrior · 9 May 2021

Class 170101 said:
Public differential added upon approach to destination most likely.

Which means in plain English?

The Planner · 9 May 2021

Mcr Warrior said:
Which means in plain English?

It means the TOC adds a differential to the working timetable arrival time (the one that actually counts when planning) that shows it arriving later than it is planned to. This is what is shown in the timetables Joe Public looks at.

Mcr Warrior · 9 May 2021

The Planner said:
It means the TOC adds a differential to the working timetable arrival time (the one that actually counts when planning) that shows it arriving later than it is planned to. This is what is shown in the timetables Joe Public looks at.

Isn't that essentially "timetable padding"? What's the reason for doing so? Meeting punctuality targets?

The Planner · 9 May 2021

Mcr Warrior said:
Isn't that essentially "timetable padding"? What's the reason for doing so? Meeting punctuality targets?

Public differentials are used in many situations, such as station arrivals and departures on half minutes. I won't see it the way others do as only the WTT is important.

Mcr Warrior · 9 May 2021

The Planner said:
Public differentials are used in many situations, such as station arrivals and departures on half minutes. I won't see it the way others do as only the WTT is important.

That makes complete sense if/when rounding WTT timings from half minutes to the nearest whole minute for the public timetable. Doesn't quite explain the rationale for why Stockport -> Piccadilly in one direction invariably seems to take several minutes longer than in the other direction.

Class 170101 · 9 May 2021

Mcr Warrior said:
That makes complete sense if/when rounding WTT timings from half minutes to the nearest whole minute for the public timetable. Doesn't quite explain the rationale for why Stockport -> Piccadilly in one direction invariably seems to take several minutes longer than in the other direction.

Technically you would expect because engineering allowance is usually added for the last bit of the journey which covers for late running due to Speed Restrictions. Notice though in the case of Stockport to Manchester the running time is actually longer anyway to Manchester than from Manchester. Sectional Running Times (SRTs) are not always the same in both directions.

Mcr Warrior said:
Isn't that essentially "timetable padding"? What's the reason for doing so? Meeting punctuality targets?

It can also be used to create a memorable public timetable even though the working timetable may not ordinarilly make this possible.

Eccles1983 · 9 May 2021

Taunton said:
This sets aside the considerable increase that's taken place ever since last station punctuality had to be reported to the Ministry.

Well-known bizarre one is the Bidston to Wrexham line, takes under an hour, two shuttling trains provide the hourly service. But the padding (which it is) before the final destination leads to the nonsense situation of the train being scheduled to arrive after it should leave on the return journey.

In an associated area, I notice that the old practice of recovering delays no longer happens. Used to be that the crews were well up for getting time back, driving hard to the line limit, minimising station stop time, etc. But not any more it seems. If the train gets delayed the rest of the journey continues with the same lethargy as always.

Up for getting time back = speeding.

The way drivers are managed nowadays is simply not worth the minute or so you would get back.

The line also used to have request stops, which are great for nicking back time. Its now all stops, and you arrive at shotton at xx21. Your departure time is xx20.

You also on leaving bidston have 3 minutes to travel 1.5 miles, but at least half of a mile at 15/20mph, and fit a running brake test in before upton.

The entire timetable is fictional. All so it can be called an hourly service. It's actually around 1hr 4 minute service.

CW2 · 9 May 2021

Mcr Warrior said:
Isn't that essentially "timetable padding"? What's the reason for doing so? Meeting punctuality targets?

Yes, the practice of making the publicly advertised arrival time at destination a couple of minutes later than the WTT time can genuinely be called "timetable padding", whereas most of the other examples quoted in this thread have been for genuine operational / timetable construction reasons. The amount of such padding can only be small, and is agreed between the TOC, NR and DfT at a contractual level. It does have an effect (generally beneficial) on the punctuality statistics, and upon the public perception of timekeeping. So long as it is kept to a minimum, it is a sensible practice.

norbitonflyer · 9 May 2021

Back in the late 70s, on a good day, I could get to my student hall of residence in Kensington before my train from the north was due to have arrived at Kings Cross. HSTs speeds on Deltic-based timetables, and Sunday engineering allowances could make for a 20-minute early arrival, and the buses had a clear run along Oxford Street and Knightsbridge thanks to Sunday Trading laws.

ScotsRail · 9 May 2021

lxfe_mxtterz said:
I remember travelling on a southbound Virgin Trains service to London via the West Midlands which waited for an awfully long time at Wolverhampton - must've been something like 15-20 minutes. Unsure of whether this was/is a regular thing or just a feature of one or a few services, but it must've given quite a bit of recovery time to any services running late, I expect?

One time I went to Birmingham from Scotland and the ticket I bought online included changing trains at Wolverhampton even though the original train was also going to Birmingham. Such was the wait that switching would have got me to Brum about 10 minutes earlier.

Trivia - timetable padding

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