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Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

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robbeech

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The actual advice is quite clear, do not travel. You can't advise people to use a train at a later date when you simply don't know when the later date will be. How much use is a ticket for today going to be in two weeks? How many people will still want to make that journey? Other than those on this forum, next to no one.
So it’s no real issue to allow it for ‘next to no one’

It’s a revenue decision that has been picked. “Customer Service” didn’t even make it into the hat.
 
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Ianno87

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Yes I agree, but in theory it impacts Hitachi less than it should because they anticipated the risk and priced it into the leasing costs over the lifetime of the fleet. Of course as we’re only 3-4 years into the contracts the actual amount accrued so far is 10% but there’s a long time to go (assuming of course that they get to 35 year life!)

Their incentive is to minimise how often this happens.
 

Sporty60

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Do people think that a pattern will emerge from the inspections?
E.g. Coach C from a nine car set or Coach B from a five car set will have more issues than others.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Their incentive is to minimise how often this happens.

Quite clearly yes, as if they reached 35 years without requiring the financial resource then that’s a healthy additional profit on top of the original profit margin.
 

Watershed

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The DfT is, at present, not paying a penny for unserviceable trains that are not being provided for traffic yesterday and today. It's Hitachi's financial problem now, not DfT's.
But every other day of the year Hitachi are laughing to the bank...
 

43066

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But that is EXACTLY what they ARE doing. By telling passengers their £30 tickets must be used today or refunded and if they don’t use them today their journey will cost them £100. By being flexible and letting passengers travel at a later date you leave more capacity for those that simply must travel today. By acting as they are they are making it more difficult for passengers today and they’re making higher profits from everyone else.

But surely most people would prefer a refund rather than “here’s a voucher for a future ticket”? That smacks rather of what (some) airlines were doing during Covid.

For example someone who has booked a ticket specifically to attend a one off event may well not wish to make that journey again.
 

py_megapixel

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But surely most people would prefer a refund rather than “here’s a voucher for a future ticket”? That smacks rather of what (some) airlines were doing during Covid.

For example someone who has booked a ticket specifically to attend a one off event may well not wish to make that journey again.
The ideal would be a choice between one or the other, surely?
 

Killingworth

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There's a number of trains advertised as 3 vice 5 car today, so clearly some are out of service.
Since February 2020 TPE have operated mostly 6 car 185s on South Pennine. Last March loadings collapsed and are barely recovering. I suspect half the units currently operating there could easily be redeployed to help out for as long as needed. Combined with units passed to operate that should ensure all booked services get covered once stock has been moved and crew issues resolved.
 

talltim

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Surely wibble. The unions are not going to allow GWR to bring in stuff driven by part time drivers with frankly poor route knowledge when plenty of HSTs around that could be used at least as far as Reading driven and crewed by GWR staff.
There’s nothing to say the ‘part time drivers’ aren’t members of the same union...
 

robbeech

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But surely most people would prefer a refund rather than “here’s a voucher for a future ticket”? That smacks rather of what (some) airlines were doing during Covid.

For example someone who has booked a ticket specifically to attend a one off event may well not wish to make that journey again.
Of course. That should always be an option, and it is.


But to say, “I know we have really let you down but if you want to travel tomorrow it’s going to cost you an extra £100” and to also say “I know we told you not to travel and that your train was cancelled but, actually we ran your train, all be it 2 hours late, and you weren’t on it because we had told you not to travel but, really sorry you can’t actually have a refund because it ran” is pretty poor in my opinion. I appreciate you might not share that opinion though.

People are perhaps forgetting not everyone is going on a trip somewhere. Many people are actually trying to get home.
 
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Horizon22

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At present, GWR has only 7 sets in service (out of about 90).
 

43066

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But to say, “I know we have really let you down but if you want to travel tomorrow it’s going to cost you an extra £100” and to also say “I know we told you not to travel and that your train was cancelled but, actually we ran your train, all be it 2 hours late, and you weren’t on it because we had told you not to travel but, really sorry you can’t actually have a refund because it ran” is pretty poor in my opinion. I appreciate you might not share that opinion though.

No I would agree the latter example in particular is very poor indeed. But equally I’m not sure someone who has paid £30 for an inflexible off peak ticket can then expect to be told “travel whenever you want for absolutely nothing”.

There is always going to be a limit to the liability of carriers in the event things go wrong. Something I don’t think has been mentioned yet is travel insurance. That is the by far best way to ensure you are fully reimbursed for consequential losses arising from this kind of thing.
 

noddingdonkey

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But surely most people would prefer a refund rather than “here’s a voucher for a future ticket”? That smacks rather of what (some) airlines were doing during Covid.

For example someone who has booked a ticket specifically to attend a one off event may well not wish to make that journey again.
What airlines were doing were saying "here's a voucher for the £60 you paid for this flight". A cash refund is certainly preferable to that.

"Here's a voucher good for a standard class advance between stations X and Y" which can be redeemed when booking any service is much more appropriate in this case and means that a passenger who booked several weeks ago to get the best price isn't disadvantaged if they try to reschedule their plans for next weekend.

Obviously a cash refund should be available as an option for those who no longer wish to travel.
 

Failed Unit

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If this is a long term issue. From LNERs point of view can they get extra mk4s back in service. Let’s say for the next 2 years they are likely to be 3x 80x down. would it be possible to get the same number of mk4s to cover. I know people have joked you can’t get them back from the blow torch. But some of the ones that haven’t got there could be worth doing the exam for if it is a few years. I expect this will be a long term find and fix. Even if they do a modification cycling this through the whole fleet will take time. I understand LNER diagramming on the 800s isn’t too intensiv anyway until 2021 so someone may say they can absorb it anyway with the mk4s they have.
 

Watershed

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Or as it's otherwise known: "Operating as a business".
Of course they are a business, and making profits is what they exist to do.

However, I understood you were suggesting that the current contractual setup represents a good deal for the DfT, due to the fact the TOCs won't be paying the leasing charges for unserviceable sets.

That 'compensation' isn't remotely close to balancing out the amount that Hitachi added on to price in this risk. So they are ultimately still laughing to the bank, notwithstanding the 7 figure sum (if not 8) that this will cost them.

That is the by far best way to ensure you are fully reimbursed for consequential losses arising from this kind of thing.
Travel insurance would probably only kick in for something around 1% of all passengers' journeys. With a domestic trip you are normally only covered if you have at least 1 or 2 nights' accommodation booked away from home.

But in any case, the potential availability of travel insurance is not an excuse for TOCs to charge people extra to undertake postponed journeys. After all, travel insurance will often claim back what they pay out, so the ultimate position from the TOC's perspective is the same.
 
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MotCO

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Let’s say for the next 2 years they are likely to be 3x 80x down. would it be possible to get the same number of mk4s to cover. I know people have joked you can’t get them back from the blow torch. But some of the ones that haven’t got there could be worth doing the exam for if it is a few years.

And send the bill to Hitachi?
 

73128

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Only 5 IETs will be allowed in service for GWR today.

3x return services on the Paddington-Swanseas, and only 2x return services Paddington-Penzance.
3 turbos working Reading to Worcester and back (166201, 165114, 165112, at 1012, 1114, 1215 from Reading) on a four hour turn round (so one missing in 4) through to 2212 or so tonight. 158s apparently working South Cotswolds west of Swindon.
 

43066

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People are perhaps forgetting not everyone is going on a trip somewhere. Many people are actually trying to get home.

Travel insurance would probably only kick in for something around 1% of all passengers' journeys. With a domestic trip you are normally only covered if you have at least 1 or 2 nights' accommodation booked away from home.

But in any case, the potential availability of travel insurance is not an excuse for TOCs to charge people extra to undertake postponed journeys. After all, travel insurance will often claim back what they pay out, so the ultimate position from the TOC's perspective is the same.

But there are limits on what is going to be possible. If LNER cancel a last train, they will (rightly) have to pay for taxis home for those passengers. If LNER discover in the middle of the night that their entire fleet is suddenly unserviceable, they aren’t required to pay for for taxis for potentially tens of thousands of passengers across their entire network. Indeed it would be physically impossible to do so!

As for travel insurance, it exists because a level of risk is inherent to all travel. Some of the comments on this thread go well beyond what most people would consider reasonable and are akin to the people we sometimes see on the news bleating on about how they can’t afford to get home when their airline has gone bust. Shock horror if you can’t afford to whack a few hundred quid on a credit card in an emergency you probably shouldn’t be travelling hundreds of miles from home in the first place.

"Here's a voucher good for a standard class advance between stations X and Y" which can be redeemed when booking any service is much more appropriate in this case and means that a passenger who booked several weeks ago to get the best price isn't disadvantaged if they try to reschedule their plans for next weekend.

In the real world I suspect that would seem perfectly reasonable to most people.
 

73128

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th
That's a very good opinion. I think 4 coaches on some services to and from Didcot and London are doable - then run 8 coaches to and from Cardiff with maybe a few 12's in the peak?
The big problem with running 387s west of Didcot (to or towards Cardiff) -as was planned to be possible for rugby etc. - is that they need guards (DOO only east of there) and they haven't been able to be trained yet. Whether this is Covid related or not, I don't know.
 

Horizon22

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They have 5

I was informed 7 about an hour ago, so perhaps another one is available but it’s a dynamic situation so will probably change as the day(s) go on.

th

The big problem with running 387s west of Didcot (to or towards Cardiff) -as was planned to be possible for rugby etc. - is that they need guards (DOO only east of there) and they haven't been able to be trained yet. Whether this is Covid related or not, I don't know.
Yes the training was due to take place - and is on the agenda - but as per a lot of things, COVID shunted that back a year or so.
 

Watershed

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If LNER discover in the middle of the night that their entire fleet is suddenly unserviceable, they aren’t required to pay for for taxis for potentially tens of thousands of passengers across their entire network. Indeed it would be physically impossible to do so!
They have to do whatever they "reasonably can" to get people to their destination if they'd otherwise be stranded. With the sorts of steps that TOCs typically take in these circumstances (advising people not to travel, and arranging ticket acceptance and replacement buses) there are usually only a handful of passengers who end up in that situation.

If there are taxis available to get these people to their destination, or at least to a train that will get them there, then the TOC is liable to arrange these, or else to pay for the passenger's bill if they don't do so.

As for travel insurance, it exists because a level of risk is inherent to all travel. Some of the comments on this thread go well beyond what most people would consider reasonable and are akin to the people we see on the news bleating on about how they can’t afford to get home when their airline has gone bust. Shock horror if you can’t afford to whack a few hundred quid on a credit card in an emergency you probably shouldn’t be travelling hundreds of miles from home in the first place.
On a flight (i.e. usually an international journey) you inherently might expect some level of disruption and it's a bigger 'event' you prepare for with contingencies such as travel insurance and a credit card.

Not so for a local journey of 15 minutes (e.g. Didcot-Swindon, Retford-Doncaster). I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to have credit cards or other contingencies for such a short journey.
 

robbeech

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But there are limits on what is going to be possible. If LNER cancel a last train, they will (rightly) have to pay for taxis home for those passengers. If LNER discover in the middle of the night that their entire fleet is suddenly unserviceable, they aren’t required to pay for for taxis for potentially tens of thousands of passengers across their entire network. Indeed it would be physically impossible to do so!
Which is why it’s useful to offer a range of low cost / low hassle to no cost / no hassle options.

I agree that expecting them to transport everyone on a bus or taxis is ridiculous, so offer alternatives to thin out the numbers that need to do that.

1. full refund from place of purchase. The regulators need to step in here and enforce the rules because they’re being rejected left right and centre as they are every single time.

2. use your ticket at a different time on a different day. Put some limitations on it if necessary, tickets for 1830 only valid on services between 1630 and 2030 2 days before or after your train and you MUST book a seat for the new service in advance. Or you must follow peak/ off peak guidelines. Or whatever they feel is necessary.

3. speak to staff and get yourself on one of the very very limited services available.

If the TOCs can get people to sod off on a bus and get a refund then it’s no longer their concern. If they can get them booked on a train on Wednesday it’s hopefully sorted. If they can send them on a massive diversion that will get them there that’s fine. This leaves fewer people to get on the trains today. These are actually generally low cost alternatives that they could put in place. They’re generally quite easy (with the exception of ticket acceptance) and don’t cost the operator much of anything.

The approach they’ve taken on the other hand generates more revenue. It’s no easier but it’s more profitable.
 

800001

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If this is a long term issue. From LNERs point of view can they get extra mk4s back in service. Let’s say for the next 2 years they are likely to be 3x 80x down. would it be possible to get the same number of mk4s to cover. I know people have joked you can’t get them back from the blow torch. But some of the ones that haven’t got there could be worth doing the exam for if it is a few years. I expect this will be a long term find and fix. Even if they do a modification cycling this through the whole fleet will take time. I understand LNER diagramming on the 800s isn’t too intensiv anyway until 2021 so someone may say they can absorb it anyway with the mk4s they have.
Mk4s are back from June 7th anyway, they are working as hard as possible to get sets in use by Tuesday
 
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