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Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

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Emaharg

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Both 1E11 and 1E15 will both start form Aberdeen on Saturday, while 1E13 will start Edinburgh vice Inverness.
All northbound bimode services into Scotland will run From Saturday.


1 came out on tuesday, 2nd one comes out tomorrow.
Thanks for the quality updates you have provided LNER services. I've just started an All line rover today, and your information is very helpful.
 
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swt_passenger

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The cracked yaw damper brackets on the bolsters from last month seems to have slipped under the radar....
I was just thinking that earlier, when I first noticed the red marking at the wrong end. It’s all gone a bit quiet on yaw damper brackets for some reason.
 

Roast Veg

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I'm continually asked to make equipment work outside its design parameters because someone with no experience has designed another product out of specification.

In an extreme case, imagine someone building a train with an incorrect wheel gauge, and the solution being to alter all the track (and all the other trains)!
I too sympathise. I have no doubt that the stress profile was extremely well defined by Network Rail and the testing regime extremely rigorous - but the specification and test plan are only as good as the combined knowledge of all those writing them. Reality is more complicated still...
 

Fidelis

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BBC ENGLAND 14:43 Today

Trains reintroduced after safety checks prompted by cracks

Trains taken out of service after cracks were found are to be reintroduced following "rigorous safety checks", the Rail Delivery Group says.

Some of the Hitachi Class 800 trains have cracks on the lifting plate, but as this is used for maintenance and not passenger journeys, regulators have agreed they are safe to return.

There has been disruption for passengers since Saturday

The rail minister warned travellers to expect disruption for "some time".

The Rail Delivery Group said Great Western Railway and London North Eastern Railway (LNER) will ramp up services.

Travellers are being advised to continue to check with their operator before they travel.
 

tbwbear

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As you wish. I was merely expanding on the point about the word's origins in the Japanese language.
Yes, I think a good way of explaining Azuma is to think of the english word "Albion" for Great Britain. Nobody really uses that but it is there.

Higashi is the normal word for east in Japan. Azuma is, as you rightly said, archaic.

I suppose if Richard Branson had exported British-built trains to Japan and called them "Albions" - the Japanese would think it was the regular word for Britain.
 

Snow1964

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Assuming the cracks are ONLY on the lifting/jacking points, do we know if it is the lifting that is causing the problem or some unforeseen vibration/harmonics when the trains are in use?

The jacking points will have been put there to lift a stationary train for maintenance, they would have negligible load when no jack is present.

However lifting could be a problem if some jacks are poorly positioned thus not lifting cleanly (if jack point is a round hole and jack head is cone shaped, it needs to be in centre, not off-centre twisting the jacking hole frame.

Lifting is also done by series of synchronised jacks, clearly if one was out of synchronisation, then it would also twist and potentially crack a jacking point. Unless the jacks get moved it would tend to be same vehicle end in every set at one maintenance location in this scenario (eg if 7th jack was rogue, would be start of 4th vehicle). This is theory, as no one has said which corners of which vehicles are more affected than others.

Another theory if cracks happen to be in same corner of multiple frames is that the sections were very marginally out of alignment when first welded, maybe jig was not perfectly aligned. I dont want to speculate, but theories like this have been around for years. I am sure I read somewhere that a batch of Bailey bridge panels had to be rejected due to being welded out of line so pins wouldn’t line up.
 

sonic2009

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Both 1E11 and 1E15 will both start form Aberdeen on Saturday, while 1E13 will start Edinburgh vice Inverness.
All northbound bimode services into Scotland will run From Saturday.


1 came out on tuesday, 2nd one comes out tomorrow.
Thank you for this information so up to now it's safe to say I will be getting a train not a replacement coach from Edinburgh to Inverness on Sunday?
 

800001

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Thank you for this information so up to now it's safe to say I will be getting a train not a replacement coach from Edinburgh to Inverness on Sunday?
As things stand yes, keep and eye on what happens Saturday, see if the Scottish moves happen, but plans are in place for units to be in correct positions for Saturdays timetable
 
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talltim

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Indeed.

If I'm asuming correctly, the welds above the yaw dampers are cracking where the bolster is welded to the body and the welds are cracking at the jacking point (where the bolster is welded to the body?) If that is correct, it appears to me, that there is a force trying to twist the bolster.

As for hitachi getting a drawing wrong. It doesn't really instil confidence (in me) when they don't know the difference between a yaw damper location and a jacking point location on a drawing.
I've read somewhere that the cracks aren't on the welds, but above them.
 

millemille

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I think they are dealing with the more serious crack first

The yaw damper bracket cracking is infinitely more serious, in terms of consequence, than the lifting pocket cracking. But the yaw damper bracket cracking appears to be a more readily understood, "traditional" fatigue related crack occurring on the highest mileage trains, whereas the lifting pocket crack appears, on the face of it, to be something other than that and obviously affecting far, far more trains with no apparent trend in terms of duty cycle.

I've read somewhere that the cracks aren't on the welds, but above them.
it is rare for the welds themselves to crack, it is generally the heat affected zone around the weld where the parent metal's temper has been been affected where cracks originate...
 

Steve Harris

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I've read somewhere that the cracks aren't on the welds, but above them.
Above them? Or where the weld meets the parent metal ? Or in the parent metal alone?

(The middle one is normally what happens (due to the heat etc of welding, where the 2 meet is normally the weakest point), but in engineering terms it's still normally referred to as cracked weld).
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Railway Gazette has published a comprehensive update on the 80x (and 385) situation.
It appears that a medium/long-term repair programme is envisaged for the entire fleets (80x and 385) which is likely to take until the end of 2022.
The programme will need specialist people and equipment, and a location for the work has still to be found.
Two 80x (800 026 and 802 205) are to be guinea pigs for establishing the best repair policy, which is still not defined.

For contingency, GWR is looking at using ex-EMR HST sets with their own power cars (for ATP), more 387s and a 67/Mk2 rake.
The DfT is said to be keen for TPE to activate Mk5 rakes so that 3x802 can be loaned to GWR (without ATP).

Class 80x recovery plan takes shape | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International

A view is developing that further cracks are unlikely to be found in significant numbers. One senior insider told Rail Business UK ‘we’ve been through the whole fleet now with a very thorough exam. The view of the engineers is that the cracks we are finding have been there for a while, because they’re not showing any fresh metal. It appears that these cracks don’t develop overnight, and whilst there might be one or two that possibly creep over the line we’re not expecting to find that a load more units have suddenly developed cracks.’
Rail Business UK understands that the cracks had not become visible on painted vehicles, as the new paint was sufficiently flexible to remain intact, hiding the cracks beneath.
 

popeter45

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Railway Gazette has published a comprehensive update on the 80x (and 385) situation.
It appears that a medium/long-term repair programme is envisaged for the entire fleets (80x and 385) which is likely to take until the end of 2022.
The programme will need specialist people and equipment, and a location for the work has still to be found.
Two 80x (800 026 and 802 205) are to be guinea pigs for establishing the best repair policy, which is still not defined.

For contingency, GWR is looking at using ex-EMR HST sets with their own power cars (for ATP), more 387s and a 67/Mk2 rake.
The DfT is said to be keen for TPE to activate Mk5 rakes so that 3x802 can be loaned to GWR (without ATP).

Class 80x recovery plan takes shape | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International
any indications yet of the long term idea of numbers of 80X's avalible to run at any time with others out for these repairs?
 

kez19

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LNER's intercity bi-modes ARE Azumas. Their only other trains are electric-only


The ones I speak of then have been scrapped? That’s wonderful no wonder that’s why I’m being advised to either hop on a coach or use Scotrail if this was to happen
 

sonic2009

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As things stand yes, keep and eye on what happens Saturday, see if the Scottish moves happen, but plans are in place for units to be in correct positions for Saturdays timetable
Thank you once again, I wasn't up for the idea of travelling from Carlisle to Inverness on 2 coaches .

On a unrelated note to LNER, if plans are in place for GWR will we see the units scattered about moved? Can they be dragged by anything other than another 800/802?
 

Energy

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The ones I speak of then have been scrapped? That’s wonderful no wonder that’s why I’m being advised to either hop on a coach or use Scotrail if this was to happen
I'm not sure what your speaking of, if you mean the Intercity 125 (diesel only, from the 70s) then they are at EMR in not the best condition.

If you mean the class 800 (the bimode trains), they are also Azumas.
 

Wychwood93

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Not including the two sets that suffered from impact damage (animals), it’s looking like two 9 cars should be back in service today. One being used between Newport and Reading. The other will form a shuttle between Reading and Exeter.
There may be more returned to service during the day.
I was out and about today and had 800028 on the 1B07 0913 Reading to Newport and 1033 1L14 return. Noted that 800006 doing the hour behind. The guard on the 1B07 did mention, more than once, that only 4 sets available out of 70, hence the way the services offered by GWR were being run. GWR staff doing a good job. Passengers seemed generally happy to accept what is going on, well informed on GWR - I am not sure who they think is 'to blame' but I am fairly sure it is 'the railway'. As retired staff - BR, Railtrack and NR - I do not engage unless appropriate to do so.
 

ainsworth74

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So what were the trains I described them on the network as that’s what they did?

As I said electrification ends in Edinburgh but once you leave to head to Aberdeen it’s diesel (this happened on the Intercity trains prior to Azuma being introduced to my area)

The ones I speak of then have been scrapped? That’s wonderful no wonder that’s why I’m being advised to either hop on a coach or use Scotrail if this was to happen

LNER (and their predecessors) operated their services to Aberdeen and Inverness using InterCity 125s (known as HSTs) these are diesel only trains and were withdrawn from service in December 2019. A number of them have been transferred to EMR and, I believe, a number have been scrapped. After December 2019 these services were operated by Class 800 bi-mode trains which would use the electrification between London and Haymarket (I believe) and ran on diesel north of there. These trains are branded by LNER as Azuma alongside the electric only 801s. From a passenger perspective there is very little difference between an 800 and 801.

On GWR they also operate Class 800s and Class 802s (both are bi-modes) but these are branded as Intercity Express Trains by GWR which is term which is sometimes also used by individuals to refer to various types of 80x even those which aren't operated by GWR.

If you have been travelling between Edinburgh and Dundee on LNER (and predecessors) you will have used HSTs and Class 800s. The HSTs have been withdrawn and either scrapped or stored (and are likely in dubious condition by which I mean you'd be unlikely to just go down a flip the on switch and drive them into service) or are currently in service with EMR. The Class 800s are all still in service but obviously are currently caught up in the current issues.
 

Max

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Please can I remind users that this thread is to discuss the ongoing incidents related to the withdrawal of the 800/801/802 fleet (as per the thread title), not detailed queries in relation to IC125s or any other unrelated points (which should be taken off to other threads in the relevant section of the forum, if you so desire).

And just a general reminder to please use the following threads for continued discussion in the following areas:

  • any general questions and updates on travel arrangements (including any confirmed unusual traction) to please use this thread in the Fares Advice & Policy forum;
  • any updates on speculative alternative traction to please use this thread in the Speculative Ideas forum;
  • any request for advice on specific journeys and trips please create a new thread in the Trip Planning & Reports forum as per normal arrangement;
  • any other discussion of the theme of "my ideas for xxx" to please continue in the Speculative Ideas forum, either in a suitable existing thread or a new thread if necessary.
 
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