Several operators are doing a very good job of exactly that as we speak.
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Should Every Station (& every Platform) Have a Ticket Machine?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Which ones?
Why would it be a good use of public money to artificially increase the need for ticket office staff. Moreover, why would I or anyone else want to waste time waiting needlessly in a queue?
Philip
On Moderation
Human interaction is better and more reliable than machines which fail frequently!
On the other hand, you work in a ticket office so you're probably slightly biased. I can't see it making any sense removing TVMs from staffed stations. Places like Leeds, the queue would be ridiculous for the ticket office.
Llandudno
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Not sure that is the case at Sheffield ticket office...
Mcr Warrior
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Northern doesn't mandate people to use a card if they wish to use cash. They can obtain a Promise to Pay and use cash. This is basically just a rehash of Permits to Travel, and what those are about is proving where you came from so you don't short-fare when you do pay.
LNR doesn't have Promise to Pay, but if the TVM doesn't take cash or you want to use RTVs, you can, I've done it with the latter. There used to be a sign at Tring stating this, too, don't know if it's still there. Obviously if you want to use card you need to use the TVM.
Is there a TOC that will consider you a non-payer (i.e. PF or prosecute) if the TVM at your origin only takes card and you want to use cash? I don't know of one, and if there was they are arguably breaching the NRCoT.
All this talk of passengers wanting to use cash is OK, but there are some for whom cash is their only option as they don't have any cards. It's not (yet!) law that the public has to carry a credit or even a bank cards for the convenience of businesses*, and sterling coins and notes are still the official currency in the UK. So unless the CoT is amended to only allow passengers who do have cards to use the railway, TOCs don't have the option of insisting on card payment.
There were changes during the pandemic to reduce the paths for infection by handling cash made my TfL at least, but their stated intention to make the practice permanent was put on hold in January.
There was a case in the MEN (Manchester Evening News) about a woman who got a penalty fare as the TVM wasn't working or whatever and didn't have time to cross to the other platform to buy a ticket from the other TVM.
After they printed it, Northern dropped the court case (The woman in question wouldn't pay the PF).
Northern said if there is no TVM available on the platform you will not subject to a PF. I do not know how this works with a TVM on one platform- I imagine the same?
I've tried to find it on google as there was a thread in disputes & prosecutions recently about someone who couldn't make it to the opposite TVM as the LC barriers were down (could be Northern land) , but alas I've been unable to find it, but it's out there.
Dunno about SE's TVM platform policy, they have a TVM on the unused P1 at Hither Green (used on engineering works etc.)
It doesn't make sense- as when you cross the bridge you are greeted by a booking office and TVM's.
After they printed it, Northern dropped the court case (The woman in question wouldn't pay the PF).
Northern said if there is no TVM available on the platform you will not subject to a PF. I do not know how this works with a TVM on one platform- I imagine the same?
I've tried to find it on google as there was a thread in disputes & prosecutions recently about someone who couldn't make it to the opposite TVM as the LC barriers were down (could be Northern land) , but alas I've been unable to find it, but it's out there.
Dunno about SE's TVM platform policy, they have a TVM on the unused P1 at Hither Green (used on engineering works etc.)
It doesn't make sense- as when you cross the bridge you are greeted by a booking office and TVM's.
Philip
On Moderation
I am biased, but I think it is still a fair point to make that passengers managed with ticket offices but no ticket machines in the past, so they can do so again.
Again, many passengers who pre-book to collect from a TVM end up collecting from the booking office, either because they don't understand how to work the machine, or because a problem with the machine or their card. It defeats the object of having the TVM there in the first place, to an extent
No, slow if you're stuck behind a passenger whocan't make their mind up on which ticket, or a staff member who needs to learn to be faster.
Who needs it when I can pick my. ticket at leisure at home and just get straight on the train?
Indeed Northern have issued penalty fares for cash payments WITH promise to pay when the revenue inspector was unable to give change. I can’t remember if it was on here or social media. I believe it was a journey where the passenger boarded at somewhere on the Dearne valley, perhaps Moorthorpe and alighted at Swinton (S Yorks) to a revenue block.
The attitude was “I can’t give you change but you can appeal the penalty fare”.
This is absolutely expected behaviour from them. I don’t remember reading whether it was successfully appealed or not.
I can assure you they have issued penalty fares under every single unlawful circumstance you can think of and we only get to find out about a fraction of them. Most people pay up as they trust that they got it wrong which spurs them on.
It may not be official policy, but it happens frequently. I’ve been stopped at Meadowhall a few times after boarding at Kiveton Park and the guard not showing and had to explain why a penalty fare is not due. It is only my above average knowledge on the rules that has prevented me getting one. For staff who are allegedly not on commission and allegedly don’t have targets they’re very keen to issue them whenever they can, perhaps it’s just an internal game they have.
Throw a broken machine or a late connection into the works and you are almost guaranteed one.
As for it being against the NRCOT, who cares? Really, who cares? There is nobody to stop them doing it.
I know that I'm not doing the over 65s a disservice. I know quite a few people younger than me who never had to use a computer at work and rarely use one at home (if they even have one). As far as smartphones go, they might have one which is only used for calling and the odd text message, but have no interest in installing applications for various travel or shopping activities. There is this assumption by many (no doubt partly due to mobile phone industry and service providers' publicity) that almost everbody has a smartphone and is prepared to use one to run their whole life, because they themselves might have chosen to do so. Businesses want everything to be online so that they can reduce staff to a minimum, and it seems sometimes that they don't have a problem if customers who can't comply fall by the wayside.
The government will need to ensure that that sector of society doesn't get pushed down, - it made that mistake itself a few years ago by putting many critical government services online, out of reach of citizens who couldn't even get web access.
Indeed. Machine failure is one issue but user unfamiliarity or error is another.
It can happen but there would be far more ' tutting ' in the queue behind me at a machine than at the booking office particularly for split fare tickets.
The first machines were Quickfare . They were simple as just a group of buttons for the destination and a second for the ticket type, no fancy touch screen. At many stations they at a guess they would cover 90% of tickets sold. All they are missing is card payment and function to collect tickets. Surely these would be a lower cost too.
I'm a few years under 65 and a competent computer user. I've also got both a tablet and Smartphone but with just PAYG SIM.
The latter two are rarely used - I must do something on the phone this month so as not to loose the credit. I carry the phone but turned off primarily in case of some emergency.
Buying rail tickets online in advance for collection is a last resort not least as I've better ways to use the time.
First choice and quickest by a big margin is and always will be the booking office.
Further I want a standalone ticket or a card e.g. ITSO if ever fully developed to cover all of the rail network plus trams & buses not to need to struggle having the right code on a phone screen at every barrier.
From peripheral involvement with a project installing machines the cost was about £15k 15 odd years ago. Bear in mind that's the machine and doesn't include installation costs. Power supply and data connections have already been mentioned but they can also be hard to get to site, I know of one that had to be brought in by train overnight because it was on an island platform. They also tend to be heavy so installation will often have to consider floor strength. None of this is cheap! In my opinion there are many places where installation will never pay for itself, a lot of Northern stations are a good example although I believe the recent round of installations was mandated by the Dft.
You also have to consider the cost of routine servicing like refilling tickets and fixing unexpected faults at unstaffed locations. Sending someone out by either road or rail can take considerable time.
The problem with some places that have one machine by each entrance is what people do when it breaks. There's an argument for concentrating them in one place, often near the ticket office, so there's some redundancy when one fails or someone slow is holding up the queue. Obviously some good examples here where things like level crossings require different considerations.
Talk of going back to ticket offices and that people should leave plenty of time before travelling is a non starter. Part of the original business case for Oyster was that reducing time buying tickets makes rail more attractive. Having to leave 10-15 earlier to ensure you can buy a ticket is just as much of a time penalty as a poor timetable or a temporary speed restriction. Mobile/smart ticketing is inevitably going to become more important. It just needs the absolute mess of competing systems to be sorted out.
You also have to consider the cost of routine servicing like refilling tickets and fixing unexpected faults at unstaffed locations. Sending someone out by either road or rail can take considerable time.
The problem with some places that have one machine by each entrance is what people do when it breaks. There's an argument for concentrating them in one place, often near the ticket office, so there's some redundancy when one fails or someone slow is holding up the queue. Obviously some good examples here where things like level crossings require different considerations.
Talk of going back to ticket offices and that people should leave plenty of time before travelling is a non starter. Part of the original business case for Oyster was that reducing time buying tickets makes rail more attractive. Having to leave 10-15 earlier to ensure you can buy a ticket is just as much of a time penalty as a poor timetable or a temporary speed restriction. Mobile/smart ticketing is inevitably going to become more important. It just needs the absolute mess of competing systems to be sorted out.
Martins Heron has two ticket machines one side and another on the platform the other side. But one of those is one of the newer ones, cards only, and it refuses to sell me a senior railcard before 9am so if I want to catch the 9.05 train I have to use the other, old version, machine. Or use the ticket office, far easier...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't know what software level SWR's machines have, but if they have a "tickets for another day" option you can also use it to buy tickets for another time, at least you can on the LNR ones. It's not overly intuitive but it's possible, and I have certainly used it and the "basket" feature to buy my usual "Anytime Day Single out, Network Card discounted Off Peak Day Single back" in one go that I'll tend to use for a London weekday trip as it is considerably cheaper than an Anytime Day Return.
Just buy it online.
Speaking as someone who was born in the early 60s, just about everyone I know does have a smartphone, including people older than me.
Philip
On Moderation
I suspect you are exaggerating on the latter point.
Encouraging passengers to buy online or at a machine also increases the likelihood of ticket irregularities and a subsequent loss of revenue for the railway as the passenger can pick and choose their ticket at will and potentially end up travelling on peak services with off peak tickets, either deliberately or because they are none the wiser; a fair number probably don't bother to look at the ticket restrictions on the website.
A ticket office can at least control this problem to some extent by either refusing to sell if the time is inappropriate, or advising the passenger of the ticket restrictions.
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In theory this is excellent.
In practise what this actually achieves is passenger’s being refused an off peak ticket until the time restriction of that ticket has passed. This can in some cases prevent them from boarding the first service their ticket would be permitted on.
Whilst many of the standard restriction codes are a blanket 0900 or 0830 sort of time, a number of them have a very specific restriction time that is based around the timetable. for example having an 0824 restriction time means the 0822 fast service requires an anytime ticket but the 0825 stopper allows an off peak one. If the ticket office won’t sell you an off peak ticket at 0815 incase you get on the 0822, then the chances are you’ll miss the 0825 and be delayed. Of course absolutely no operator would pay out the necessary and justified compensation here. As such, people end up buying the anytime tickets just so they can get to work.
It’s extra revenue for the operators so they won’t go out of their way to change it. Would we pay someone to reward us with a cut in wages?
Of course lots of ticket offices will sell you exactly what you ask for but quite a lot of them are told not to sell certain tickets.
The exact same principle applies with some machines, and of course many barriers won’t let you through until the restriction time which may cause passengers to run.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That is true of most TVMs. It isn't true of online or mobile, because basically all the sites sell only from a journey planner. (OK, with Mixing Deck you can buy without an itinerary, but that's the only one, and it's not the default UI on any TOC any more, you have to edit the URL to use it, so you can be sure that only experts are using it).
I think we are not far off the point where it will be cheaper to provide for "can'ts" (e.g. free basic smartphones, basic data package and training for those on Universal Credit, say, or entirely free travel for those whose disability would prevent them using one) and let the "won'ts" stew in their own self-pity.
A TVM appears to cost about £20K. A Motorola G10 costs £129.99, and while it's at the low end it is a competent smartphone - you can go cheaper, and in bulk even cheaper still. That's 153 people you can provide a smartphone to instead of installing the TVM, say. How many regulars does a typical rural station have who don't already own a smartphone or a PC and printer? I bet it's single figures per station.
In my experience that extends to advising me a ticket was not valid that in fact was. And it was a really simple ticket, too - an Off Peak Single on a direct train from that station. And he was convinced enough that he even wrote down on paper with a ticket office stamp giving me evidence.
Did the TOC even reply to my complaint? Nope.
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So in a world when so much is online to the benefit of customers, you want rail to not follow that in order to protect revenue. Who wants the customer unfriendly railway of the 1970s?
As far as whether I am exaggerating re: smartphones, I am struck by the number of Zoom calls I have been on over the past year in which friends in their 60s and 70s have participated, clearly on smartphones rather than laptops as you can tell by the image moving that they are holding it in their hand.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW, I reported the TVM at Woburn Sands as faulty on Tuesday evening. The bottom right hand corner of the touch screen was not working, so while you could select a ticket you couldn't buy it as the "buy now" button was not selectable.
I wonder how long it had been like that? I bet several days.
I used my phone in the end. I tend to use TVMs where provided as I can get a ticket out of one slightly quicker than via a journey planner on my phone, but if not there it's no disaster for me.
I wonder how long it had been like that? I bet several days.
I used my phone in the end. I tend to use TVMs where provided as I can get a ticket out of one slightly quicker than via a journey planner on my phone, but if not there it's no disaster for me.
Philip
On Moderation
You mention "the customer unfriendly railway of the 1970s", is this just a cliche? Not sure how online or TVM ticket technology can be described as 'friendly'; a friendly human being behind the glass selling tickets and helping with the customer's travel on the other hand...
Even with online tickets running off a journey planner system, it doesn't stop a passenger buying the off peak ticket and then turning up earlier in the peak hours. Many stations don't have barriers; for those that do some of the gateline staff don't check the ticket properly and then some guards don't bother checking.
A well run booking office at a busy station will ensure ticket revenue loss is kept to a minimum, and will be a lot more helping in assisting a passenger's journey than any website.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't want a chat with the TVM, I want it to produce a ticket as quickly as possible with the least fuss possible.
Most people on the railway are making regular, repeated journeys. Obviously many of these justify a season ticket, but many don't. But if you're making the same journey frequently, you know what ticket you want, so don't need that advice.
Yes, back in the day the booking office would have a pre-printed stack of day returns to London in the number they expected to sell, and would quickly and efficiently swap those for exact cash payment. But those days have long gone, so I don't feel there's a benefit gained by having a person sit between me and the technology I can use myself. It's like I see no benefit in having to phone my bank or go to a cashier to find out my balance when I can pick up my phone and see it with one tap on the Monzo icon.
That doesn't mean booking offices have no role - well-trained, experienced and well-run ones do - but I really question the benefit from having them on the likes of Merseyrail to just churn out day tickets and Anytime Day Returns to Liverpool. A TVM could do that, and a contactless tap-in, tap-out system would do it even better still.
If anything, I'd say you'd be better off with travel centres as we used to have - i.e. take a number, pull up a chair and sit and discuss options with no expectation of fast service, provided at major stations only, plus TVMs elsewhere.
Nor does anything prevent the passenger buying the off peak ticket in advance from the booking office and using it at the wrong time.
A well-run booking office certainly will, but in my experience far too many of them are not well-run.
I've always bought tickets either through the train company's website, using a machine at the station or at a manned ticket booth. Is there an app which allows you to buy a ticket and store it on a phone, which can be easily retrieved when someone wants to check it?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, basically take your pick of any TOC or ticketing site's app, they all have them. Try a few until you find one you like.
You are talking about total exclusion to anybody that cannot use these online methods. I (and some others) are saying that the railway as a 'public transport' system can offer them but not bar those who cannot accept that offer.
You will find that many of the Zoom calls that senior people have been using over the last year have been set up by younger friends/relatives with very explicit instructions. In addition, given the difficulties that many older people have with their eyesight, a large number of them have tablets to see their callers on.
An assessment should be made of each platform in use based on published criteria based on access including bus stops.
If the ticket machine does not pass the assessment then the requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding should be waived.
At Bamford station the ticket machine is on the Sheffield bound platform.
Most of the "valley" buses from use a "turn around" on the Manchester side which has flat access to the platform(100m).
If you need the machine its 250m over a road bridge and steep steps thrice.
For step free access via the ticket machine it would be nearly 800m.
If a passenger had luggage and/or young children, enforcing the use of a ticket machine would be unfair.
I like others am not disabled but at times and unpredictably, find it difficult to manage.
My work round until there is a machine on the the Manchester side is to purchase a Wayfarer(Derbyshire) on the bus.
Hopefully the helpful bus companies get a bigger share of my spend.
As these tickets are not available at the machine (GM?) I can get on without a ticket anyway- or do I need promise to pay thingy?
If the ticket machine does not pass the assessment then the requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding should be waived.
At Bamford station the ticket machine is on the Sheffield bound platform.
Most of the "valley" buses from use a "turn around" on the Manchester side which has flat access to the platform(100m).
If you need the machine its 250m over a road bridge and steep steps thrice.
For step free access via the ticket machine it would be nearly 800m.
If a passenger had luggage and/or young children, enforcing the use of a ticket machine would be unfair.
I like others am not disabled but at times and unpredictably, find it difficult to manage.
My work round until there is a machine on the the Manchester side is to purchase a Wayfarer(Derbyshire) on the bus.
Hopefully the helpful bus companies get a bigger share of my spend.
As these tickets are not available at the machine (GM?) I can get on without a ticket anyway- or do I need promise to pay thingy?
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