Faults with Class 70 Powerhaul P616 Engines

sx_turbo · 4 Feb 2021

Good Morning All,

This is my first post as i am researching common faults and failures of the CLASS 70 engines.

I know the engines were Jenbacher gas engines designed for stationary applications, and GE took the design and converted it to diesel.

I know it had issues with vibrations causing the fuel system to leak and catch fire in their early life, can anyone confirm what the fix was for this?

I'm also wondering if there are any further issues anyone can shed light on.

I know of an operator that has a common failure of number 8 cylinder, it appears that they have had 3x of their loco all suffer the same failure, one of the engine has suffered 3 times upon first use after rebuild and test.

The failure is liner cracking and cylinder head cracking but only on number 8, all other cylinders are fine. I've struggled to find further information.

I suspect that resonance is the cause of the failures.

RailUK Forums

bassmike · 4 Feb 2021

The class 73 loco's had problems way back in that when they didn't use the diesel engine for a long period, the big-end bearings suffered from brinnelling due to the vibrations from track inequalities.

sx_turbo · 5 Mar 2021

Thanks Bassmike.

we're still struggling with determining the cause.

the oem are awful to deal with, the operator gets zero help from them and whenever spares are requested they always have a minimum of 6 month lead time, and more often then not it gets to the end of that lead time and it gets extended for another 6 months.

Wabtec and when it was GE have almost zero support in the UK and all the engines currently in operation are bodged to keep going because of it. the operator we're dealing with wishes they didn't have to continue using them, but unfortunately are contracted to the leasing company.

Usually when the operator runs the trains they get full documentation drawings of bogies, wiring diagrams, engine repair manual etc. They were gven nothing except for diagram and material spec for the wheels.

Its bad show from the OEM i believe and i'm sure it must break some EU law along the lines of right to repair or something.

delt1c · 5 Mar 2021

sx_turbo said:
Thanks Bassmike.

we're still struggling with determining the cause.

the oem are awful to deal with, the operator gets zero help from them and whenever spares are requested they always have a minimum of 6 month lead time, and more often then not it gets to the end of that lead time and it gets extended for another 6 months.

Wabtec and when it was GE have almost zero support in the UK and all the engines currently in operation are bodged to keep going because of it. the operator we're dealing with wishes they didn't have to continue using them, but unfortunately are contracted to the leasing company.

Usually when the operator runs the trains they get full documentation drawings of bogies, wiring diagrams, engine repair manual etc. They were gven nothing except for diagram and material spec for the wheels.

Its bad show from the OEM i believe and i'm sure it must break some EU law along the lines of right to repair or something.

EU law, eh thought Brexit meant no longer applies

TRAX · 5 Mar 2021

Wow I didn’t know the Class 70 matter was that bad.

sx_turbo · 19 May 2021

thought i would offer an update.

it transpired that due to the OEM being so terrible, aftermarket oil filters were used, and the aftermarket filters had strips of rubber glued on them to assist with alignment,

well the oil attacked the glue and softened it, causing the rubber strips to come loose and find its way into the main oil galleries, the strips then ended up settling on the piston cooling jets blocking oil to the piston causing it to overheat.

TRAX · 19 May 2021

sx_turbo said:
thought i would offer an update.

it transpired that due to the OEM being so terrible, aftermarket oil filters were used, and the aftermarket filters had strips of rubber glued on them to assist with alignment,

well the oil attacked the glue and softened it, causing the rubber strips to come loose and find its way into the main oil galleries, the strips then ended up settling on the piston cooling jets blocking oil to the piston causing it to overheat.

Very interesting, thank you !

ac6000cw · 19 May 2021

sx_turbo said:
Usually when the operator runs the trains they get full documentation drawings of bogies, wiring diagrams, engine repair manual etc. They were gven nothing except for diagram and material spec for the wheels.

Its bad show from the OEM i believe and i'm sure it must break some EU law along the lines of right to repair or something.

So was the supply of the full maintenance and repair documentation in the original purchase contracts with GE?

Don't assume that 'consumer protection law' applies to business-to-business contracts - it's 'caveat emptor' territory usually...

hexagon789 · 19 May 2021

delt1c said:
EU law, eh thought Brexit meant no longer applies

Afaik the way they decided to go about it is purge them one by one from the statute books as required rather than simply saying - 'we've left the EU, all these laws no longer apply henceforth'.

jopsuk · 19 May 2021

sx_turbo said:
Usually when the operator runs the trains they get full documentation drawings of bogies, wiring diagrams, engine repair manual etc. They were gven nothing except for diagram and material spec for the wheels.

Its bad show from the OEM i believe and i'm sure it must break some EU law along the lines of right to repair or something.

eh, all that would break British Health & Safety laws, specifically PUWER, I would have thought?

sx_turbo said:
thought i would offer an update.

it transpired that due to the OEM being so terrible, aftermarket oil filters were used, and the aftermarket filters had strips of rubber glued on them to assist with alignment,

well the oil attacked the glue and softened it, causing the rubber strips to come loose and find its way into the main oil galleries, the strips then ended up settling on the piston cooling jets blocking oil to the piston causing it to overheat.

ah, so at no point before it all went wrong did anyone think to ask a materials chemist. Figures.

Steve Harris · 19 May 2021

hexagon789 said:
Afaik the way they decided to go about it is purge them one by one from the statute books as required rather than simply saying - 'we've left the EU, all these laws no longer apply henceforth'.

Exactly. Quite a few EU laws are in the UK statue book. Until they are repealed or replaced by another act of parliament they are still law. (We still have laws from hundreds of years ago which are still on the books and have not been repealed yet).

Unfortunately anybody who thought that leaving the EU ment we could tear up the EU rule book on the 1st January really didn't/doesn't have a grasp of what "Brexit" really means.

BigB · 20 May 2021

I'm sure everyone they interviewed on television at the time said they absolutely understood exacly what it meant. Maybe they only told some people...

Anyway back to class 70s... normally part of the contract would be providing documentation, usually specified by the buyer. If this was not supplied as requested this would be a contractual issue rather than an HSE issue, as the PUWER assessment for operation is normally carried out by the purchasing company.
Where items are on a maintenance contract then often the maintenance documentation is not supplied as the buyer is not carrying it out, and needs to be requested separately.

So did the buyer request this info? If so then they had a case with the vendor which should have been settled a long time ago. If not, then that was a bit of an oversight....

Faults with Class 70 Powerhaul P616 Engines

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