They Freight Company as it's their Asset.
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WCML disruption - Grayrigg 28/06
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My wife and I were expecting to catch the 14.23 from Lancaster to Liverpool LS (ex Glasgow I believe). Finally the train arrived just over an hour late (better than a lot of the London trains I believe). But suddenly the indicators at Lancaster switched from describing the destination as Liverpool, to Preston. It was to be terminated there but no explanation or apology for this from the announcers at Lancaster. When the train finally arrived it was beyond packed and we had to stand in the aisles (fortunately for only the fifteen minutes or so to Preston): there was no social distancing and many people, including large family groups, were not wearing masks. Quite scary really. However the Scottish guard was very apologetic and we sensed his frustration -it seems he had only just (at Lancaster) been informed by control that it was terminating at Preston. Long wait on crowded platforms at Preston for the next train but finally arrived at Lime Street at 17.25 (all but two hours late).
All very unfortunate (especially in a pandemic) but clearly beyond anyone's control. I've been held up on motorways for longer (without toilets or Costa Coffee!).
All very unfortunate (especially in a pandemic) but clearly beyond anyone's control. I've been held up on motorways for longer (without toilets or Costa Coffee!).
Elecman
Established Member
Dont FOCs have limited delay liability. If so then Network Rail
That’s my point, surly it’s not about money but moving passengers???
Mcr Warrior
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Indeed, but quite a lot of WCML passengers must have been severely delayed today, and so entitled to delay repay. So, who ultimately picks up the tab for that?
brad465
Established Member
So this was my last full day while on holiday in Penrith, first how it was planned, then what actually happened:
Planned:
10:31 to Carlisle, arr 10:47
10:58 to Ribblehead, arr 12:22 (miss this and it's a near 4 hour wait almost for next one)
Climb one or two mountain peaks in the area (the Yorkshire three peaks was never planned for me)
16:37 to Carlisle, arr 18:00 (or the 18:06 departure if more time was needed)
18:33 to Penrith, arr 18:49
I could see the first of the above was on time initially, but by 10:15 I was clearly going to miss the Carlisle connection.
What actually happened:
10:49 to Lancaster, arr 11:27
Spent time watching/hearing developments at Lancaster station till around 12:30
Got lunch and roamed city
14:48 to Hellifield, arr 15:41
16:12 to Ribblehead, arr 16:37
Climbed Ingleborough by foot, returning to station at 19:10
19:35 to Langwathby, arr 20:35
WALKED to Penrith, arr 22:00 (5 miles)
I went down to Lancaster as part of a jaunt to kill time waiting for the Carlisle connection after, still believing there was time to go back from there. But even this delay was so bad that in the end it was better to wait for the next Leeds train from Lancaster, despite the infrequent service via Bentham, so bought separate tickets to cover these legs. In the end I did get the bonus experience of going via Hellifield, which I hadn't done before. When it came to returning from Ribblehead, the train down the S&C was a few mins late but relatively speaking good, but I could tell the connecting train at Carlisle was (and still is at time of writing) delayed, and no other trains to Penrith were passing through after 9pm, even with delays, so as I left Appleby concluded it would be quicker to walk from Langwathby to Penrith, especially as I have a strong walking endurance speed. Had I not done that I would still be sitting at Carlisle right now.
"But as I was Langwathby way, any evening any day, I found myself, doing the Langwathby walk." (I'll be heading off now)
Planned:
10:31 to Carlisle, arr 10:47
10:58 to Ribblehead, arr 12:22 (miss this and it's a near 4 hour wait almost for next one)
Climb one or two mountain peaks in the area (the Yorkshire three peaks was never planned for me)
16:37 to Carlisle, arr 18:00 (or the 18:06 departure if more time was needed)
18:33 to Penrith, arr 18:49
I could see the first of the above was on time initially, but by 10:15 I was clearly going to miss the Carlisle connection.
What actually happened:
10:49 to Lancaster, arr 11:27
Spent time watching/hearing developments at Lancaster station till around 12:30
Got lunch and roamed city
14:48 to Hellifield, arr 15:41
16:12 to Ribblehead, arr 16:37
Climbed Ingleborough by foot, returning to station at 19:10
19:35 to Langwathby, arr 20:35
WALKED to Penrith, arr 22:00 (5 miles)
I went down to Lancaster as part of a jaunt to kill time waiting for the Carlisle connection after, still believing there was time to go back from there. But even this delay was so bad that in the end it was better to wait for the next Leeds train from Lancaster, despite the infrequent service via Bentham, so bought separate tickets to cover these legs. In the end I did get the bonus experience of going via Hellifield, which I hadn't done before. When it came to returning from Ribblehead, the train down the S&C was a few mins late but relatively speaking good, but I could tell the connecting train at Carlisle was (and still is at time of writing) delayed, and no other trains to Penrith were passing through after 9pm, even with delays, so as I left Appleby concluded it would be quicker to walk from Langwathby to Penrith, especially as I have a strong walking endurance speed. Had I not done that I would still be sitting at Carlisle right now.
"But as I was Langwathby way, any evening any day, I found myself, doing the Langwathby walk." (I'll be heading off now)
voyagerdude220
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There are now delays at Lockerbie, owing to a "young child" trespassing in the area. All lines blocked.
brad465
Established Member
Was there any level of bi-directional working on the WCML Northern sections in the past akin to that seen on the double track sections of the GWML and ECML? If the latter two benefit from their resilience levels maybe the WCML should also get this.
Hardcastle
Member
We should have the full WCML timetable back by now as in the next few weeks there is going to be mass overcrowding in the hight of the summer as people regain confidence in travelling again.
Statto
Established Member
Some trains are still being delayed by both events, just watched 9M82 18.52 Edinburgh-Euston via Birmingham leaving Crewe on the Railcam 135 late, almost turning into an unofficial sleeper as it's now due to arrive in Euston at 03.28.
I really wish they did a quick timetable change but hopefully by September it'll be back to normal though the odd few services do seem to be missing from RTT (Eg the Euston-Bham-Glasgow services on Sundays?)
EDIT: Just went and checked, the timetable from September onwards on all days, now looks almost the exact same as current, 6tph out of Euston instead of 9 with Bham-Glasgow cut back to Blackpool still, cmon Avanti!!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The only bi-di on the WCML is from Rugby to Lichfield (plus Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme on the Manchester line).
The northern WCML (Weaver Jn-Scotland) still has its 1974-era signalling.
It needs ETCS.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
I did some looking, depending on when you look. You can see that they are duplicated to run to both Glasgow and Blackpool. If the fast services are in, then they'll obviously be sending them back north.
I do agree that now would be a good time for a full WCML timetable given the extra train from Glasgow by BOTH Avanti and TPE might've helped shift things a bit better.
Falcon1200
Established Member
I also agree, and hope, that the full TT is restored soon, but it would not have made any difference yesterday, given how long it took to get even the pitifully small number of Down trains which did run through past 4S43. There will no doubt be an internal inquiry into yesterday's incident but I doubt we will get to know the outcome, in particular why it lasted so long and why the throughput of trains via SLW was so limited.
The Planner
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Being planned now.
Yes, the Glasgow to Euston via Birmingham, TPE from Glasgow to Manchester/Liverpool would of been great to have them back for the summer holidays. Many services last Saturday were sold out heading south from Glasgow.
QueensCurve
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Interesting that this clearly had a problem at Carnforth being delayed there for 51 mins. It is of course very easy to carp from the sidelines, particularly with the benefit of hindsight, but it might have been better to keep it there where there are the facilities to get it off/keep it off the main line.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0623 Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Mossend Euroterminal
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Ground frames aren't the solution. Bidirectional signalling, under the control of the signalling centre, is.
I have long since lost count of the number of times incidents on the WCML could have been mitigated had it been provided.
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Overlength freight trains are a pain all over the Network now, and there seems no end to it !
Reducing length reduces profitability. Increasing regulating point length costs a lot of money. Can't afford to invest in longer infrastructure until you're making enough money, which requires longer trains...
Bigger issue here is that the FOCs send out trains that are longer and heavier than the path is planned for, meaning trains get later and later, and won't fit in the loops they're booked to be overtaken in.
The penalty for doing so is minute compared to the delay and disruption it causes.
If they send it out longer or heavier than NR offered the path for, I'm pretty sure they're on the hook for the delay.
They're on the hook yes, but not for nearly enough to make them send out compliant trains 100% of the time.
Obviously freight by rail needs to be encouraged, but it shouldn't be given a free pass.
They increased the size of Ipswich Yard to take longer trains, up to about 2300 feet (after long trials with 4L69), whilst increasing the capacity, reduced the flexibilty at the same time, with just 1 road (except for the UDGL) to allow trains to RR and go / come from Cross Country routes, now we have the longer yard, they are starting to try and run 2500 feet freights ! Plus side for the FOC's, very few loops long enough to take such a train, so once it's off and running..........
Quite a few on the Felixstowe runs are nearly always over the WTT weight, sometimes by quite a lot, they loose minutes here and there, goes down to the FOC, but is always disputed !
Yup, it's a difficult cycle to break. It's difficult to argue against running longer trains when NR needs the cash, yet when something goes wrong...
The train in this instance was travelling under the booked length.
Victorian infrastructure and fudged timetables are the real pain
Bertie the bus
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4S43, aka The Tesco Express, has always been too long for many of the loops. There are 1 or 2 it fits in, I think, but it has always been timed at Preston to immediately follow a passenger service where there is a decent gap until the next one so it has a free run to Penrith.
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The Planner
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The Specially Authorised Loads book is probably nearing War and Peace size now.
Recall a good few years ago now, we had a visit from the WTT planners, even back then there were issues, they said we know some times are tight, but that is the only way we can do it, if we added 3 mins from A to B, the GE service behind would have to be retimed, then a service a bit further up would have to change..............
brad465
Established Member
You'd think a busy stretch of mainline like that would have had a more recent signal replacement: from what I could tell most of the signals from Preston northwards are either a new LED signal head but still in the four lights' configuration, or the original signal head but replaced the filament bulbs with LED fittings inside (something I've never understood the logic behind).
The Planner
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Money and how long you can stretch it out until its really life expired. Normally 40 years but plenty soldiering on into their 50s and 60s.
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