• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What stock will Scotrail be using on the Levenmouth line when it reopens?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,482
With the Levenmouth line due to open in a couple of years and partial electrification scheduled for the Borders and Fife Circle lines, is there any information yet as to what stock will operate these services? Given the lead times for procurement of new stock (or even conversion of existing stock), it feels as though orders will need to be placed fairly soon. How big a fleet is likely to be needed for these services?

(I did look for an existing thread, but apologies if one already exists.)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
With the Levenmouth line due to open in a couple of years and partial electrification scheduled for the Borders and Fife Circle lines, is there any information yet as to what stock will operate these services? Given the lead times for procurement of new stock (or even conversion of existing stock), it feels as though orders will need to be placed fairly soon. How big a fleet is likely to be needed for these services?

(I did look for an existing thread, but apologies if one already exists.)
It's been suggested that a large fleet of EMUs which would also replace the 318/320 fleet would be procured. This would also then operate the East Kilbride/Barrhead services replacing the interim use of BREL Mk3 units.
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,482
It's been suggested that a large fleet of EMUs which would also replace the 318/320 fleet would be procured. This would also then operate the East Kilbride/Barrhead services replacing the interim use of BREL Mk3 units.
Thanks. I'm guessing the 318s will be not far short of the 40 year typical life expectancy of emu's, so that makes sense. I was mulling over whether any existing modern fleets that are due to come off lease might be the subject of an attractive offer from its ROSCO to find an alternative use. (eg isn't there a sizeable number of Class 350s that is looking for a new home?)
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Thanks. I'm guessing the 318s will be not far short of the 40 year typical life expectancy of emu's, so that makes sense. I was mulling over whether any existing modern fleets that are due to come off lease might be the subject of an attractive offer from its ROSCO to find an alternative use. (eg isn't there a sizeable number of Class 350s that is looking for a new home?)
Various things have been rumoured but the lastest suggested that using 318/320 on the electrified Barrhead/East Kilbride routes and then total replacement later by a new fleet was how it was going to go
 

Southsider

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
750
Various things have been rumoured but the lastest suggested that using 318/320 on the electrified Barrhead/East Kilbride routes and then total replacement later by a new fleet was how it was going to go
Are there enough 318/320 to do that without causing problems on their current routes?
 

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
2,346
Location
Edinburgh
Are there enough 318/320 to do that without causing problems on their current routes?

You could possibly spare some by making all services via Queen Street 334 operated. The 318/320 fleet still has a fair few between Balloch and Airdrie, as well as Milngavie and Springburn.

You could also take them off Inverclyde at a stretch and swap them out with 380/385.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Are there enough 318/320 to do that without causing problems on their current routes?
No idea, and given the plan to eventually move to 8-car formations to East Kilbride I'm not convinced a 3-car 318/320 is going to offer enough capacity unless they are seriously going to pinch 6-car 318/320 formations from somewhere.

An lot of re-organising would be needed either way.
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,482
Hence back to my original question, which is that doesn’t Scotrail need to make some procurement decisions fairly quickly given lead times for rolling stock associated with the various electrification projects, full or partial?
 

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,211
Hence back to my original question, which is that doesn’t Scotrail need to make some procurement decisions fairly quickly given lead times for rolling stock associated with the various electrification projects, full or partial?
Something that isn't clear (to me at least) is what the status of the agreement with Hitachi is. There was a clause in the original 385 order that if Abellio was given an extension the the ScotRail contract they would order more units, it could be that Transport Scotland have managed to transfer that agreement over with the franchise and thus they can just order from Hitachi rather than going out to public tender.
 

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
483
Something that isn't clear (to me at least) is what the status of the agreement with Hitachi is. There was a clause in the original 385 order that if Abellio was given an extension the the ScotRail contract they would order more units, it could be that Transport Scotland have managed to transfer that agreement over with the franchise and thus they can just order from Hitachi rather than going out to public tender.

This is possible, however if you're going to order a largeish set of bespoke units, it's always better to tender them to avoid any litigation later on down the line.

My hunch on this is a set of forty or so battery fitted, 3 car 385s, as well as fitting batteries to a subset of the existing fleet for last mile capability.

The issue around replacing the Strathclyde units is a red herring, and isn't really relevant. Those units will be ordered in about six years or so as a big block, and will not be 385s for well documented issues. The fast interurban units aren't suitable for trundling around clydeside at 50mph, and that order will inevitably be put out to tender when the 318s are seen ass life expired.
 

SC318250

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2011
Messages
612
I think the 318s will be around for at least another 8 years as they are to be repainted over the next 2 years as well as Tbox overhaul
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
if there's to be a combined order for Fife and Strathclyde units, will the Strathclyde network all be cleared for 6x23m carriages? I thought there's some routes are currently restricted to class 314/318/320/334 due to platform length not allowing Class 380/385?
 

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
There’s some very restricted spots on the North Clyde lines like High Street etc where 6x20m fit, but extending to 6x23 would be very difficult and SDO wouldn’t be practical given the volume of passengers boarding/alighting and short dwell times. Some of the stations on the Cathcart lines could be a challenge as well. Some of the Hampden extras this week had 6x380 on them but only stopped at Mount Florida. More generally I think the max length is 4x23 or 6x20.
 

Southsider

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
750
There’s some very restricted spots on the North Clyde lines like High Street etc where 6x20m fit, but extending to 6x23 would be very difficult and SDO wouldn’t be practical given the volume of passengers boarding/alighting and short dwell times. Some of the stations on the Cathcart lines could be a challenge as well. Some of the Hampden extras this week had 6x380 on them but only stopped at Mount Florida. More generally I think the max length is 4x23 or 6x20.
When Cathcart/Neilston was electrified many of the stations had 9 car stop markers, the exception being Crosshill IIRC. Since then many of the platforms have been shortened, the most obvious being Queens Park with its exit path now at track level.
 

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
When Cathcart/Neilston was electrified many of the stations had 9 car stop markers, the exception being Crosshill IIRC. Since then many of the platforms have been shortened, the most obvious being Queens Park with its exit path now at track level.
Fair enough & I can see what you mean looking at places like Burnside as well. Looking from above, Crosshill actually looks like a short extension might actually be possible. Some of the others do look hideously tight though - Pollokshaws East & Pollokshields East are wedged between 2 bridges, Maxwell Park looks to have a bit of space, but whether it would be wide enough to meet modern standards is a different question, also, a lot of them are curved - are they (re?)extendable under the current rules?
I can't help coming back to the idea that a 5x23/24m or 6x20 walk-through unit would probably be the ideal solution for a general Strathclyde inner suburban unit.

Coming back on topic though.... If at least some of these units were fitted with batteries, then I guess they could operate to Anniesland via Kelvindale, solving the problem of electrifying under the canal aqueduct & allowing diesels to be totally eradicated on local services around Glasgow.
 

Steven_G

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2018
Messages
140
With Abellio ending its franchise agreement in March 2022 it is not for them to propose anything they will never run.

A new body running Scotrail will need to decide and from recollection, that entity has not as yet been established.

It is true that staff will move over to this new body automatically but the top level of management will, I am sure, have a new structure and it will be them that will propose any new fleet.

Don’t forget that if Abellio were still running it after March 2022 we would have had another 10 sets of 385’s ordered. Perhaps this will be the medium term plan still and cascade units to these new electrified areas.
 

Southsider

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
750
What has become of Hitachi’s proposal to fit some 385s with batteries and where were they intended to be used?

Regarding the north Clyde, it has been supplemented by 321s converted to 320s. As most of them end up being used in tandem to form six car trains would it not be sensible, if any more are to be done, to make them fixed six car, eliminating two cabs? I don’t know where the motors are, if they’re in the driving vehicles then I guess it wouldn’t work.
 

numtot12345

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2021
Messages
82
Location
Glasgow
What has become of Hitachi’s proposal to fit some 385s with batteries and where were they intended to be used?
Good question - not heard much about this for a while, as I think was reported a fair bit The Scotsman and Hitachi themselves for a bit. From what I remember, the technology they had covered a smaller distance (Say, enough for EK line), but newer tech they had been testing had a range of 30 or 60 miles and an interim solution until wires put up? Which they argued could fill gap for Stirling/Dunblane > Perth & Dundee, recharging at Dundee. Doesn't help those trains going to Aberdeen though. Fife Circle possibly mooted as well.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
I don’t know where the motors are, if they’re in the driving vehicles then I guess it wouldn’t work.
They are in the intermediate car with the pantograph (overhead current collector). I think all the BREL Mk3 design AC EMUs are the same.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,196
Location
County Durham
Hitachi already have enough to do with getting the existing 385s and the 80xs made crack free before they can realistically start working on new build battery units. If ScotRail were to order new stock it would likely need to be put out to tender.

Extra stock isn't neccessarily required for Levenmouth, as the DMUs freed up by wiring East Kilbride will be availble. The 156s could potentially work everything that's currently 158 operated in and out of Glasgow, freeing up 158s for Levenmouth.

If as mentioned further up that the plan for East Kilbride is to run trains formed of 8x20m, the solution could be a fleet of second hand EMUs (350/2s, 365s, 379s all available) to work the East Kilbride route, and to leave the 318s and 320s where they currently are.
 

och aye

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
799
This video has some information about ScotRail's fleet replacement at around 15 mins in with Syeda Ghufan, ScotRail’s Engineering Director explaining their plans. There's also a lot of information and slides about the future plans for the network in Scotland as well.

 
Last edited:

russellsam

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2016
Messages
6
Hitachi already have enough to do with getting the existing 385s and the 80xs made crack free before they can realistically start working on new build battery units. If ScotRail were to order new stock it would likely need to be put out to tender.

Extra stock isn't neccessarily required for Levenmouth, as the DMUs freed up by wiring East Kilbride will be availble. The 156s could potentially work everything that's currently 158 operated in and out of Glasgow, freeing up 158s for Levenmouth.

If as mentioned further up that the plan for East Kilbride is to run trains formed of 8x20m, the solution could be a fleet of second hand EMUs (350/2s, 365s, 379s all available) to work the East Kilbride route, and to leave the 318s and 320s where they currently are.
You do realise that the Levenmouth branch is to be electrified as part of the project to reopen it?
 

XAM2175

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2016
Messages
3,469
Location
Glasgow
Hitachi already have enough to do with getting the existing 385s and the 80xs made crack free before they can realistically start working on new build battery units. If ScotRail were to order new stock it would likely need to be put out to tender.
The repair programme doesn't prevent Hitachi constructing bodyshells to a revised design, especially if they're done at separate plants. However yes, if the units don't come as an extension of or option in an existing contract then a new call for tenders would be required.
 

gingertom

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2017
Messages
1,251
Location
Kilsyth
The repair programme doesn't prevent Hitachi constructing bodyshells to a revised design, especially if they're done at separate plants. However yes, if the units don't come as an extension of or option in an existing contract then a new call for tenders would be required.
no doubt there could be a clause along the lines of "must be able to couple up to, and interwork with, a class 385" which would seal the deal for Hitachi. The interesting video in post #21 does contain a mention of Talgo and a factory to be built at Longannet if they win orders to build trains. Ticks many boxes.
 

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,571
Location
Hong Kong
So from that video we can confirm that by around 2025:

- Entire 156 fleet replaced by BEMUs (but not directly)
- Borders & Fife BEMU operated
- Kilmarnock, Stranraer, Carlisle, WHL operated by cascaded DMUs until around 2035

By extension doesn't that point strongly towards 158s working all current 156 operated routes by 2025 (hence Fife getting the BEMUs which replaced the 156s before GSWR and WHL see BEMU operation)?

Makes sense given the developments that we're already seeing (long standing plan for 158s on WHL, Haymarket 158 fleet transfer to Corkerhill, 158s now working Carlisle-Newcastle, diagrams still existing to retain Glasgow Central crews competency on 158s, 170s providing more Perth/Dundee services these days than 158s, Levenmouth electrification displacing yet more 158s and 170s)?

Or am I joining the dots too much and the railway would never do such a thing?
 
Last edited:

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
A reminder that this thread is for discussion of rolling stock for the Levenmouth line when it reopens.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread.

thanks :)
 
Joined
24 Jun 2014
Messages
432
Location
Derby
no doubt there could be a clause along the lines of "must be able to couple up to, and interwork with, a class 385" which would seal the deal for Hitachi.

Not necessarily

The procurement spec for the class 385s might have specified a particular type of coupler (as BR did for the Sprinter family and the class 158s)

If it didn't, those who managed the procurement of the class 385s should have ensured that the operator (and possibly also the owner) has a license to use those parts of the 385 design as are necessary to procure trains from another party which will work in multiple with them.
 

AMD

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
604
You do realise that the Levenmouth branch is to be electrified as part of the project to reopen it?
You'll have to give me some time to find the source but I have read that it will be electrified as part of the building project to remove the disruption of electrification after services have started ie when Levenmouth starts it will be diesel units.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top