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Stations rebranded to Great British Railways design / Rail Alphabet 2

nlogax

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Dark blue backgrounds with white text was one of the initial options for the new signage that ultimately didn't get chosen during the public testing.

This article talks through the reason for changing from the current TOC signage, why it was important and how they went about it. It also shows the 3 early concepts near the end, with the black and white and (at the time) New Rail Alphabet option being favoured which was developed further with the new typeface and a lot of refining.

https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/

Very interesting article - thank you Harry. I wasn't aware of the New Transport option. In comparison with RA2 I think not using it was the right choice. Not enough presence and too finicky with the rounded sign detail which doesn't really add anything outside of the typeface itself.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Very interesting article - thank you Harry. I wasn't aware of the New Transport option. In comparison with RA2 I think not using it was the right choice. Not enough presence and too finicky with the rounded sign detail which doesn't really add anything outside of the typeface itself.

I think the blue with Akkurat looked superb. Shame they didn't choose that.
 

Meerkat

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Dark blue backgrounds with white text was one of the initial options for the new signage that ultimately didn't get chosen during the public testing.

This article talks through the reason for changing from the current TOC signage, why it was important and how they went about it. It also shows the 3 early concepts near the end, with the black and white and (at the time) New Rail Alphabet option being favoured which was developed further with the new typeface and a lot of refining.

https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ayfinding-signage-and-rail-alphabet-2-part-1/
The Akkurat (I can’t tell the difference between that and Brunel) on blue is by far the best looking of those options - simple and dignified
Not sure it was a real choice when they didn’t have a simplified style, but in Akkurat on blue. And those spindly arrows are terrible and don’t stand out at all.
i just don’t understand their standing out argument - the solid dark blue really stands out from the background on stations round here, whilst white disappears into almost any background including all the other signs and adverts that are around.
 

HarryL

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Not sure it was a real choice when they didn’t have a simplified style, but in Akkurat on blue. And those spindly arrows are terrible and don’t stand out at all.
The article touches on why they favoured a bright colour, rather than a dark one, they even considered neon colours.

The next issue to tackle was selecting the most effective colour for the new wayfinding signage. I am constantly surprised by the lack of agreement in the privatised railway as to whether dark text on light backgrounds is best for signage (like British Rail’s black Rail Alphabet on white signs), or whether light text on darker backgrounds (like the British Railways Gill Sans totems or Railtrack’s blue signs) is easier to read.

Spaceagency approached the problem by undertaking a colour study of Network Rail’s stations; taking pictures of station interiors and then pixellating them so that the fine detail vanished, leaving behind blocks of colour. The study found lots of dark neutral colours, with an occasional bright retail colour standing out. The “Woman at Work” exhibition features some of these colour palletes, collected from Network Rail’s stations, and they make a fascinating record of the feel of each station (and, I think, a great merchandising opportunity; but I digress). The new wayfinding signage standards would need a colour scheme which stood out against all the different palettes, and one idea which was considered could have led to a very different appearance for Network Rail’s stations.

“We even looked at neon colours: pink, yellow, and orange. It would have been a hard sell,” Manning admits, “but we were agnostic on the final colours.” I’m not sure what traditionalists would have made of neon-coloured station signage, but in the end Spaceagency found that white and black backgrounds for signage both worked well, with white-background signage standing out slightly better against the typical station colour palette.
(Quote from this article.)
 

Meerkat

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The article touches on why they favoured a bright colour, rather than a dark one, they even considered neon colours.


(Quote from this article.)
I read that but I don’t believe their fancy graphics really did a good job, for a start it’s going to merge colours so there would be less white background than there really is.
 

Doomotron

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All London terminal stations were re-named sometime in the 1980s to include London as the prefix. So Liverpool Street is now indeed London Liverpool Street for the National Rail station (but just Liverpool Street for the Underground station).
Interesting. I think there's a bit of a disparity then - despite officially being called London [name], on pretty much every map (at least National Rail level maps; I'm not sure about operator maps) there's no London in the name. This doesn't seem to be the case with other cities, strangely...
 

py_megapixel

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One thing I don't get about RA2 is why the standard UK bus and tram pictograms were not used. The ones they have used are not as clear.
I agree in principle - however, the standard bus and tram pictograms can be hard to distinguish from each other from a distance, which is a problem at some stations where buses and trams are in a different place (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly)

My personal opinion is that ideally for light rail systems a system-specific logo should be used instead - the 'S' in a ring for Glasgow, the diamond thingy in Manchester and so on.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree in principle - however, the standard bus and tram pictograms can be hard to distinguish from each other from a distance, which is a problem at some stations where buses and trams are in a different place (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly)

My personal opinion is that ideally for light rail systems a system-specific logo should be used instead - the 'S' in a ring for Glasgow, the diamond thingy in Manchester and so on.

Yep, same for the Merseyrail M - everyone knows what it means. And the Tube logo. Sheffield might be the exception as it doesn't really have a recognisable logo, it just uses Stagecoach branding which could mean buses.
 

DJ_K666

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Why the harking back to the past (and, particularly, a part of the past that was seen as a necessary evil at the time)?
(not a personal dig at you, Trainfan2019).
I can't speak for anyone else but that particular era of the past is in my view preferable to the mess that came later. You knew who operated the trains and who was accountable. Once privatisation hit nobody seemed to know anything and when there was a problem trying to get answers was like wading through treacle. Worse, those of us south of the Thames had to deal with the likes of Connex SouthCentral and Southern. Something that I am glad to have now escaped from.

So yes. That is why I prefer to hark back, as I don't really see it as that, more coming full circle. Back to when going by train was fun, you could see so much more variety, more freight, lots of decent, railway-esque things from the window rather than endless Desiros, Electrostars, Voyagers and APTs Pendolinos.
 

bramling

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I can't speak for anyone else but that particular era of the past is in my view preferable to the mess that came later. You knew who operated the trains and who was accountable. Once privatisation hit nobody seemed to know anything and when there was a problem trying to get answers was like wading through treacle. Worse, those of us south of the Thames had to deal with the likes of Connex SouthCentral and Southern. Something that I am glad to have now escaped from.

So yes. That is why I prefer to hark back, as I don't really see it as that, more coming full circle. Back to when going by train was fun, you could see so much more variety, more freight, lots of decent, railway-esque things from the window rather than endless Desiros, Electrostars, Voyagers and APTs Pendolinos.

This seems like a fair assessment. Those in favour of privatisation point to some of BR’s failings and the big increase in passenger numbers, however the former was largely thanks to BR having to work within political parameters, and the latter I think is more down to societal changes, and would have happened anyway in most cases.

The fragmentation of the industry hasn’t served it well, and branding has been an increasing merry-go-round.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I just hate the lack of colour. A colour strip under the white sign with black writing would add so much - like on GWR & FGW / ATW & TfW signs. The colour could be anything from GBR’s colour to a regional variant.

Rail Alphabet 2 thankfully looks far more modern than the exceptionally dated Rail Alphabet, but it’s still somewhat brash and ugly, I think.

Brunel as used at Network Rail is very modern and yet very simple, easy to read and pleasant. Akkurat is also nice, as is New Transport. Even Helvetica Neue looked good when First Great Western used to use it, it’s a bit more corporate but still looks modern and professional. SBB make it work well too; it looks smart.

Rail Alphabet is old, dated and screams the 80s and 90s. Rail Alphabet 2 is more modern but looks somewhat brash and ugly.

I guess time will tell how much of a success this rebrand is.
 

DJ_K666

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This seems like a fair assessment. Those in favour of privatisation point to some of BR’s failings and the big increase in passenger numbers, however the former was largely thanks to BR having to work within political parameters, and the latter I think is more down to societal changes, and would have happened anyway in most cases.

The fragmentation of the industry hasn’t served it well, and branding has been an increasing merry-go-round.
Absolutely. There are certain things that have come in that I approve of, TPWS fir instance. Let's not forget that 1983 was BR's nadir, the lowest its passenger numbers ever were. Then they rose from then to 1994 when the Thing happened.
 

XAM2175

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Back to when going by train was fun, you could see so much more variety, more freight, lots of decent, railway-esque things from the window rather than endless Desiros, Electrostars, Voyagers and APTs Pendolinos.
You know that you're not getting any of this back, right?
 

crablab

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You know that you're not getting any of this back, right?
And it's also unrelated to design/branding.

My personal opinion is that ideally for light rail systems a system-specific logo should be used instead
I am surprised this isn't being done, although perhaps it would need to be done in black on white to avoid branding clashes.

The argument would be: why would you use the Underground roundel in London instead of a generic metro train? So why do that in other major cities?
 

takno

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And it's also unrelated to design/branding.


I am surprised this isn't being done, although perhaps it would need to be done in black on white to avoid branding clashes.

The argument would be: why would you use the Underground roundel in London instead of a generic metro train? So why do that in other major cities?
You might as well ask why the taxi and bus chosen as "typically British" were London-specific, and in the case of the bus a horrible mistake that's unlikely to be repeated anywhere else.

Personally I'm more irritated by the fact the the logos are all face on, except the stand on the right one, which I immediately interpreted as somebody coming towards me on the left (maybe standing, maybe not). Well, that and the first class lounge logo which is just glaringly and unforgivably stupid
 

py_megapixel

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I am surprised this isn't being done, although perhaps it would need to be done in black on white to avoid branding clashes.
Indeed - though that might be an issue in the West Midlands where the only way the Metro differs from West Midlands Railway is in the logo colour! (a really stupid design decision if in my opinion)
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed - though that might be an issue in the West Midlands where the only way the Metro differs from West Midlands Railway is in the logo colour! (a really stupid design decision if in my opinion)

London is the same. Yes, the roundel carries text, but then the full WM logos are meant to be accompanied by text too.
 
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Meerkat

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The London Underground roundel is well known, but I’m not sure how well recognised the tram symbols are outside their local area.
 

Mordac

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The London Underground roundel is well known, but I’m not sure how well recognised the tram symbols are outside their local area.
I think most people who haven't been there would think the Tyne and Wear Metro's logo belongs to a Morrisons. :D
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The London Underground roundel is well known, but I’m not sure how well recognised the tram symbols are outside their local area.
Why on earth does that matter though? If you were visiting an area you'd work out the symbols soon enough, just as you do when traveling abroad.
 

Meerkat

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Why on earth does that matter though? If you were visiting an area you'd work out the symbols soon enough, just as you do when traveling abroad.
Errr…..so you want clear signposting but it doesn’t matter whether people know what the symbols mean?
 

takno

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Errr…..so you want clear signposting but it doesn’t matter whether people know what the symbols mean?
Put yourself in the position of somebody from out of the area getting the T&W Metro. If you've looked up times you will have been told to get the metro. The metro website or Google maps for that matter will have presented you with the logo. The name metro and the logo will be what you're looking for. The last thing you want to have to do is guess what form of transport the metro counts as, and then have to figure out which non-standard icon out of the rubbish set of weird British-rail-only icons is meant to represent that form of transport.

What's good for the tube is good for other regions.
 

Lockwood

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A bottom border would look good.

And perhaps a splash of colour on the text? Rather than black on white, maybe mid-to-dark blue? And a bottom border of silver, you could include some red and blue flashes to get the red white and blue thing going.
 

Meerkat

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Put yourself in the position of somebody from out of the area getting the T&W Metro. If you've looked up times you will have been told to get the metro. The metro website or Google maps for that matter will have presented you with the logo. The name metro and the logo will be what you're looking for. The last thing you want to have to do is guess what form of transport the metro counts as, and then have to figure out which non-standard icon out of the rubbish set of weird British-rail-only icons is meant to represent that form of transport.

What's good for the tube is good for other regions.
Why would people take note of a logo on a website if they just went there for times? Not that I would expect to need to know the times if it’s really a metro.
I would just expect a sign saying ”Metro”or a pictograms of a tram.
The underground logo is several orders of magnitude better known than any metro system, and is usually accompanied by “Underground” or the line name(s).
 

Bletchleyite

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Why would people take note of a logo on a website if they just went there for times? Not that I would expect to need to know the times if it’s really a metro.
I would just expect a sign saying ”Metro”or a pictograms of a tram..

A pictogram of a tram would be confusing if used for Metro, as it doesn't have any street running.
 

Purple Orange

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Who goes to a new city and gets confused by the symbol used for their local metro system? Nobody. You’re either presented with a big symbol on a poll, stood above stairs or an entrance to a station, or a big big symbol on a platform with trams running by. Whatever city, whatever country, you put the dots together.
 

Meerkat

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A pictogram of a tram would be confusing if used for Metro, as it doesn't have any street running.
It’s near enough - the pictogram doesnt show a street does it?
Who goes to a new city and gets confused by the symbol used for their local metro system? Nobody. You’re either presented with a big symbol on a poll, stood above stairs or an entrance to a station, or a big big symbol on a platform with trams running by. Whatever city, whatever country, you put the dots together.
I thought we were discussing pictograms in railway stations
 

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