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Platform Stop Boards Policy

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wellhouse

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Does anyone know the policy for positioning Platform Stop Boards?

There was a thread a little while ago about stop boards not aligning with platform shelters, but what has caught my attention is the inconsistent installation of stop boards for trains of different lengths at the same station.

I understand that with curved platforms, clear sightlines for dispatching may be an issue, but at Wrenbury, for example, with dead straight platforms, the Up line has a single 'S' stop board, while the Down has boards for 2, 3 and 4 car stops. Then when a single Class 153 arrives, it stops short of any of them, with no marker. I seem to recall that Ludlow also has different stop boards on each platform.
 
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jon0844

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Does anyone know the policy for positioning Platform Stop Boards?

There was a thread a little while ago about stop boards not aligning with platform shelters, but what has caught my attention is the inconsistent installation of stop boards for trains of different lengths at the same station.

I understand that with curved platforms, clear sightlines for dispatching may be an issue, but at Wrenbury, for example, with dead straight platforms, the Up line has a single 'S' stop board, while the Down has boards for 2, 3 and 4 car stops. Then when a single Class 153 arrives, it stops short of any of them, with no marker. I seem to recall that Ludlow also has different stop boards on each platform.

Won't they depend on the design of the cab and the position of a signal? A 717 requires stopping further back in many places so a driver can see a signal in the seated position.

There will be lots of factors I'm sure.
 

D6130

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Stop boards are very rarely used at Northern stations, but one notable exception is on the Up (Leeds-bound) platform at Keighley - where there is an 'S' marker more than half-way along the platform. This means that passengers have to walk a considerable distance from the bottom of the access ramp to the rear of the train and vice-versa and has been so positioned to ensure that conductors can see the platform starting signal - some distance away around a left-hand curve - before giving the driver the 'ready to start' signal. There is also an 'HST Stop' and a '91/Mk4 Stop' board at other Aire Valley stations which are served by LNER services....in the case of platform 2 at Skipton, positioned beyond the platform starting signal, which must be cleared with a susiduary aspect before such trains can come to a stand with all doors at the platform.
 

Deepgreen

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Whatever the policy is, it doesn't always favour passengers when all other considerations would otherwise allow it. Redhill p0 (northbound direction) has 4/5 car markers (for Southern), and GWR 2 and 3 car units also have to pull right up to this marker. This means that GWR passengers are then left just outside the canopy and needlessly far from the stairs. I have raised the provision of a 3 car marker and was told that, as the design team for the construction has now beern disbanded, it is therefore impossible to alter anything(!). This is clearly pathetic rubbish, but, years after the issue was raised, the situation remains and I have witnessed many people miss their trains through having so far to walk/run along the platform to catch it. Not to worry though, there's another one in an hour.

BTW, in case anyone thinks that stopping GWR trains further back (i.e. under the canopy and close to the stairs) would cause operational/signalling problems - no; the platform is bi-directional and 12 car southbound trains stop right up at the southern end, still well clear of the signal. It's just yet another example of the fragmented railway not being bothered to get the details right to benefit passengers.
 

ComUtoR

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There is more to stop marker placement than signalling. It is very passenger focussed.

Standards and requirements for platforms etc can be found on the RSSB website.
 

norbitonflyer

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There is more to stop marker placement than signalling. It is very passenger focussed.

Standards and requirements for platforms etc can be found on the RSSB website.
Sorry, but the Redhill example cited would suggest otherwise. Kingston platform 2 is another (and potentially dangerous) example
 

Halish Railway

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There is an S car stop sign on the Ilkley bound platform at Guiseley that must have put there in the days of 308s or 3 car 333s as if any for car train stopped there the end of the train would overhang the platform.
 

172007

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There is more to stop marker placement than signalling. It is very passenger focussed.

Standards and requirements for platforms etc can be found on the RSSB website.
At our place it's where the nearest post to where the board needs to be, no additional posts are put in for a better position so stop boards get clumped together. There are Harrington platform humps that are positioned in front of the stop boards as well in places. It's really random. We have S boards that when you stop you have to lean forward to see the signal on the platform end.

If it was passenger focused then there are plenty of stations where the stop boards could be arranged so that the middle of the train marries up with the platform access, stairs etc. Just doesn not happen.
 

tpjm

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BTW, in case anyone thinks that stopping GWR trains further back (i.e. under the canopy and close to the stairs) would cause operational/signalling problems - no; the platform is bi-directional and 12 car southbound trains stop right up at the southern end, still well clear of the signal. It's just yet another example of the fragmented railway not being bothered to get the details right to benefit passengers.
Are you competent to make those assessments or are you just guessing? I'm not familiar with Redhill so this is just based on my general knowledge of these things...

Something you likely won't have thought about are the TSS loops on the platform (or 'TPWS grids') which protect against a SASPAD (Start Away Signal Passed at Danger) - this is particularly important if there is a junction beyond the platform where. The infrastructure designer will have calculated the maximum speed a train could reach from a standing start when hitting the grids at the signal and thus how far TPWS would need to stop the train if the signal was passed at Danger. Let's say that the train is now 2 coaches further down the platform - that's an extra 50m so the train could theoretically reach a higher speed. The easy solution is to increase the signalling overlap, but we don't always have that luxury. I am working on a station which has exactly this problem at the moment. We have decided to put in two TSS loops to support two different stop locations on the platform - one for 6-8 car trains and one for 2-5 car trains - thus catching a SASPAD from either position. I don't know if Redhill is the same, but if they failed to do this in the design phase (which could have been done due to cost) it won't be an easy things to implement now.

To quote a post I dropped into another thread recently....

Reading this thread is rather interesting. As somebody who is actively involved in setting and changing stop boards, it's staggering quite how many people we have here who don't see the significance of these boards.

Let's be clear, TOCs don't like to spend money unless it has a safety benefit. The obvious reason why stop boards get fitted is to minimise the chance of a stop-short, but if that was the only reason, we'd just have S car boards at the end of the platform.

Other considerations:
  • Signal/DOO monitors sighting for the Driver
  • Signal/OFF Indicator sighting for the Guard and/or Dispatcher
  • DOO camera positioning
  • Visibility for the Guard/Dispatcher of the full PTI (particularly at curved platforms)
  • Visibility of particular areas of the train (following a train surfing risk assessment)
  • Management of step gap (particularly at curved platforms)
  • TPWS grids, AWS magnets
  • Specific location requirements, such as places with a short overlap and therefore, specific TPWS fitment to cater for SASPAD incidents.
  • Permissive bi-di working
  • Positioning of the accessible door in relation to platform furniture
  • Location of TRTS/CD/RA plungers
  • Customer flows (i.e. main thoroughfares)
  • Canopies and customer facilities (to minimise the amount of running for trains, slips, trips and falls, and manage dwell time)
  • Entrances and Exits on the platform (think about seeing late runners who may try to board)
...

...The ORR have recently become very hot on stop-boards with the introduction of so much more rolling stock where the Driver gives door release. Coupled with the various amounts of new stock with different accessible door positions, coach lengths, etc, there has been a large increase in the number of stop boards. Some operators are attempting to rationalise the approach to make it easier for all involved, but from experience of doing this, I can confirm that is is NOT as simple as you might think!!!
 
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Tomnick

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Something you likely won't have thought about are the TSS loops on the platform (or 'TPWS grids') which protect against a SASPAD (Start Away Signal Passed at Danger) - this is particularly important if there is a junction beyond the platform where. The infrastructure designer will have calculated the maximum speed a train could reach from a standing start when hitting the grids at the signal and thus how far TPWS would need to stop the train if the signal was passed at Danger.
Compliance with stop markers isn't necessarily mandatory though - it's a matter for company instructions - and it's always possible that a train might end up stopped in an unexpected position, perhaps through driver error or for a legitimate operating reason, and the signalling design always ought to take that possibility into account.
 

ComUtoR

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Sorry, but the Redhill example cited would suggest otherwise. Kingston platform 2 is another (and potentially dangerous) example

At our place it's where the nearest post to where the board needs to be,

NR (or those that install them) do have a habit of sticking a board at the most convenient location. I do see that but...

If it was passenger focused then there are plenty of stations where the stop boards could be arranged so that the middle of the train marries up with the platform access, stairs etc. Just doesn not happen.

...As @tpjm (thanks for your post) It can be very complex at times. Especially when you have a variety of stock that arrives at a platform. The more stock the worse it gets tbh.

@tpjm I'd also add platform lighting to your list as I didn't see that mentioned. There are a couple extra I'd add but they may be a bit more on the technical requirements side so I'll just say its a group standards thing.
 

LowLevel

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I think my favourite was Irlam's down platform. A veritable cacophony of boards to reflect the variety of traction operated by Northern Rail including in multi (I've always respected their drivers and guards operating stopping trains on that route with varying platform lengths and traction from 142 to 150 to 156 to 195!), the S car stop board of which would drop the back of the longest formation to call there right off the platform with the rear doors overhanging a low bridge.

I assume the intent was to avoid using the low part of the platform where possible but I would have said the risk of an errant guard or passenger falling off a bridge if the driver used the S car board was far higher than the managed risk of a larger step down!
 

ComUtoR

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To the best of my knowledge it is the TOCs who decide on the positioning of Stop Boards.

Gotta love it when we request a board go in at location X and then come back to find it just been stuck up on the nearest bit of metal pole. Or spend weeks checking a platform only to find that entire monitor stacks have been put back incorrectly.
 

172007

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To the best of my knowledge it is the TOCs who decide on the positioning of Stop Boards.
Yep, our DM's fo out with a measuring wheel, some signs and jubilee clips. As for lighting. If anyone has seen Earlswood West Mids we have 5 car trains and the front 2 carriages are in the dark Stratford direction as the lights only go as far as 3 carriages. Acocks green has the first 2 carriages in darkness London bound as the platform runs out of lights and relies on the lighting in the car park 20 meters away and the light in the car park nearest has not worked for months.
 

tpjm

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Compliance with stop markers isn't necessarily mandatory though - it's a matter for company instructions - and it's always possible that a train might end up stopped in an unexpected position, perhaps through driver error or for a legitimate operating reason, and the signalling design always ought to take that possibility into account.

The ORR are getting much more hot on the use of stop markers. Looking at my list above, what has the lowest overall risk, using the preplanned and calculated stop board position or just stopping anywhere?

Signalling infrastructure cannot cover every possible scenario - the objective is to cater for as much as is physically possible. The station I am currently on at the moment was only planned to have one TSS loop and it was at our (the TOC's) request that a second was installed to enable short trains to stop fully under the canopy. If we hadn't insisted on that there would likely have been a mandatory local instruction. I wouldn't know for definite, but this could be the case at Redhill.

@tpjm I'd also add platform lighting to your list as I didn't see that mentioned. There are a couple extra I'd add but they may be a bit more on the technical requirements side so I'll just say its a group standards thing.

Lighting should be a given. There are standards for the minimum lux levels which vary between DOO/non-DOO. Where a platform does not meet this requirement, I would challenge NR on whether it could be classed as 'operational platform' or not.

To the best of my knowledge it is the TOCs who decide on the positioning of Stop Boards.
The TOC makes the assessment - they own the safety/risk of their operation, not NR, not to mention that they are best placed as they have the knowledge of the traction.
 
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Tomnick

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The ORR are getting much more hot on the use of stop markers. Looking at my list above, what has the lowest overall risk, using the preplanned and calculated stop board position or just stopping anywhere?
Failing to stop in the correct stopping position as a result of driver error, though, is an inevitable reality - for the same reason that you need the TSS loops in the first place!

There are other good reasons for a train not being stopped in the "correct" or usual position, though. Maybe it's, unusually for a given location, been formed by a portion detached from another train during disruption. I'd argue that signalling designers do have to account for that possibility. The only location I know of with an extra set of TSS loops is a dead-end platform where the risk is that a short train starting against the signal from adjacent to the buffer stops might not otherwise be stopped before the fouling point, which is particularly close to the signal.
 

AngusH

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It sounds like it would be easier to rearrange the stuff on the platform and put up some new roofing than rearrange the train stopping positions.

Maybe mark the platform with some painted arrows to show where the boarding areas are?
 

DanNCL

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In most cases 5 car 800s and 801s on the ECML share a stop board with the 9 and 10 car formations (themselves usually in the same place as the Mark 4 stop board), even at platforms where doing so means a 5 car unit will stop as far away from the waiting passengers as possible. There a couple of exceptions (Durham platform 2 comes to mind) but this is the norm at most ECML stations, including those where a separate “5-6 car TPE” stop Board (which the 802s use) is present at a much more convenient location on the platform for the passengers. It has always struck me as odd why it wasn’t set up for the 5 car 800 and 801 fleets on the ECML to be able to use the same stop boards (or have their own stop boards in the same locations) as the 802s when running solo.
 

CEN60

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As some light relief but still related to car stop markers - my favourite car stop markers are the ones provided for the Caledonian Sleeper - you have to love the person that suggested putting "zz" on a board for the sleeper service - the railway sometimes has a sense of humour!
 

Bikeman78

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Whatever the policy is, it doesn't always favour passengers when all other considerations would otherwise allow it. Redhill p0 (northbound direction) has 4/5 car markers (for Southern), and GWR 2 and 3 car units also have to pull right up to this marker. This means that GWR passengers are then left just outside the canopy and needlessly far from the stairs.
Westbound trains at Cardiff Central stop a long way down the platform. They used to stop near the stairs in the early 2000s. The worst example, which I encountered recently, is a five car IET. It pulls right up to the end of the platform. Anyone in standard class has to get off in the rain. Joining passengers crowd onto the rear two coaches and traipse through the first class. A five car stop board at the end of the shelter would appear to be a sensible plan. That's where all the other trains stop.
 

XAM2175

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As some light relief but still related to car stop markers - my favourite car stop markers are the ones provided for the Caledonian Sleeper - you have to love the person that suggested putting "zz" on a board for the sleeper service - the railway sometimes has a sense of humour!
It's the generic letter code for a freight operator.
 

wobman

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Does anyone know the policy for positioning Platform Stop Boards?

There was a thread a little while ago about stop boards not aligning with platform shelters, but what has caught my attention is the inconsistent installation of stop boards for trains of different lengths at the same station.

I understand that with curved platforms, clear sightlines for dispatching may be an issue, but at Wrenbury, for example, with dead straight platforms, the Up line has a single 'S' stop board, while the Down has boards for 2, 3 and 4 car stops. Then when a single Class 153 arrives, it stops short of any of them, with no marker. I seem to recall that Ludlow also has different stop boards on each platform.
TFW platforms on many short or low platforms had Harrington humps fitted, so the stop boards align with the relevant traction type doors and the hump high point.

The manager who thought of the humps got an award whilst ATW ran the franchise, it would have been far better to raise the whole platforms involved but the Harrington humps were a cheap alternative.

There's many reasons for varied platform stop boards on different stations, signal view / curved platform / Harrington humps / alignment with waiting room ramp access points / ramp access for units etc
 

pt_mad

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On a related note, a stop board reading 'S Car Stop' obviously means stop. But what traction does S Car actually apply to?
 

Eccles1983

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On a related note, a stop board reading 'S Car Stop' obviously means stop. But what traction does S Car actually apply to?
All.

S is used to signify the leading car of any formation. Its generally right at the end.
 

Watershed

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On a related note, a stop board reading 'S Car Stop' obviously means stop. But what traction does S Car actually apply to?
Everything, unless there's another stop board which the traction matches (e.g. you could have an S Car Stop as well as a ZZ Stop board for a sleeper).
 

800001

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In most cases 5 car 800s and 801s on the ECML share a stop board with the 9 and 10 car formations (themselves usually in the same place as the Mark 4 stop board), even at platforms where doing so means a 5 car unit will stop as far away from the waiting passengers as possible. There a couple of exceptions (Durham platform 2 comes to mind) but this is the norm at most ECML stations, including those where a separate “5-6 car TPE” stop Board (which the 802s use) is present at a much more convenient location on the platform for the passengers. It has always struck me as odd why it wasn’t set up for the 5 car 800 and 801 fleets on the ECML to be able to use the same stop boards (or have their own stop boards in the same locations) as the 802s when running solo.
5-6 All boards were fitted at Lnet stations where they are shared with TPE, both lner and tpe were going to use them, they were very quickly removed.
Makes totally no sense like you say for them to stop at end of platform, watched one last week on plat 4 at Darlington and customers thought it wasn't going to stop.
 

craigybagel

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Does anyone know the policy for positioning Platform Stop Boards?

There was a thread a little while ago about stop boards not aligning with platform shelters, but what has caught my attention is the inconsistent installation of stop boards for trains of different lengths at the same station.

I understand that with curved platforms, clear sightlines for dispatching may be an issue, but at Wrenbury, for example, with dead straight platforms, the Up line has a single 'S' stop board, while the Down has boards for 2, 3 and 4 car stops. Then when a single Class 153 arrives, it stops short of any of them, with no marker. I seem to recall that Ludlow also has different stop boards on each platform.
There are always reasons for this, even if they don't seem immediately obvious.

Wrenbury is pretty simple - the boards in both directions work to get the train as close to the exit at the level crossing as possible. On the up, this only requires an S board as the exit is at that end. On the down, you only want to go as far down the platform as is necessary to get the whole train on the platform and close to the exit, so different boards are needed for the different lengths of trains that call. Prees and Yorton have extra boards to ensure that the accessible door is on the Harrington hump regardless of what type of unit is used, but as the platforms at Wrenbury are already full height they're not required there.

Ludlow on the up is a 5 car platform - with the exit near the end, so pretty much everything stops at the end of the platform. On the down the platform is only long enough for 4½ cars, and the exits are in the middle. To cater for this, there is a 2/3 car stop board that has those trains cover the middle part of the platform, a 4 car board near the end as it needs the extra space, and a 67/DVT board off the end of the platform, as the only way to platform the 4 passenger carrying cars of the MKIV sets is for the leading loco/DVT to go past the end of the platform.
 

Lemmy99uk

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The manager who thought of the humps got an award whilst ATW ran the franchise, it would have been far better to raise the whole platforms involved but the Harrington humps were a cheap alternative.
The manager who thought of the humps did NOT get an award.
 

pt_mad

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Everything, unless there's another stop board which the traction matches (e.g. you could have an S Car Stop as well as a ZZ Stop board for a sleeper).
Thank you. Does the 'S' in 'S car Stop' actually stand for Stop as well?
 
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