What was South West Trains like in the late 1990s?

PTR 444 · 30 Oct 2021

The first time I took a train on the SWT network was around 2004-2005, the time the Desiros were being introduced to the SWT network. As a result, I have very little recollection of what the network was like before then, but would be curious to know whether it was much different to how it is today.

Between 1996 and 2000:

What was the rolling stock like? I know Class 442s and slam-door stock was used but how did the interior experience and seating compare to what it’s like now?
Was the service pattern and frequency similar to the pre-2007 timetable?
What were loadings like? Did we still have the same level of overcrowding as we did in February 2020?
What were public information displays like? Did stations use solari boards?
How good was the reliability and quality of service compared to now?

Any other memories of SWT’s early days would be welcome.

RailUK Forums

yorksrob · 30 Oct 2021

The slam doors were lovely comfortable trains. And to their credit, SWT looked after them very well to the end (unlike others "cough Connex").

JonathanH · 30 Oct 2021

yorksrob said:
The slam doors were lovely comfortable trains. And to their credit, SWT looked after them very well to the end (unlike others "cough Connex").

They looked after the ones they fitted with red moquette - the ones that retained blue blaze weren't quite as well looked after.

yorksrob · 30 Oct 2021

JonathanH said:
They looked after the ones they fitted with red moquette - the ones that retained blue blaze weren't quite as well looked after.

I must admit, my main experience of the slammers at the time was on the SC and SE and SWT seemed to look after theirs better.

REVUpminster · 30 Oct 2021

I can remember getting a 9 car 159 from Waterloo. It dropped off 3 cars at Salisbury and at Exeter St David's it split and 3 cars went to Plymouth and 3 cars to Paignton. On another occasion the same train on Saturday was diverted via Southampton for engineering work and was so late terminated at Newton Abbot.

Snow1964 · 30 Oct 2021

In late 1990s the only stock less than 10 years old on SWT was the 442s and diesel 159s (and token quantity of 158s).

The 455s had lots more seats 3+2, and appeared more airy as the seat backs were low, but decor was very functional (basically as BR specified them in early 1980s)

Virtually everything else was slam door units, kept in good condition despite their age.

The service pattern was similar, but more portion working, and the running time was much tighter, 20-30 second station stops were common.

Loadings were very busy on some lines, but parts of their network was quite sleepy.

Only the main busy stations had destination displays, a lot of them had nothing. I think a few stations still had manual finger boards in the early 1990s (but they may have gone by time SWT took over.

In the early days of the franchise, it was very much a follow on of Network SouthEast style.

StephenHunter · 30 Oct 2021

You also had Eurostar trains using Waterloo, in the platform section on the western side of the station.

tbtc · 30 Oct 2021

It doesn't directly answer any of the OP's questions but my memories of SWT (from 2000ish) was that they seemed the least changed of the post-NSE franchises - maybe this was a lot to do with the fairly low key change in livery - swapping the red/blue/white that they inherited from BR with a red/blue/orange/ white (this was when Stagecoach still had there "stripes" on buses rather than the "beachball", but the adaptation of Stagecoach branding seemed pretty "sympathetic" compared to the relatively rash way that other franchises were splashing their new identities around - e.g. the fairly lurid Silverlink)

The services were a bit more varied back then (albeit this will be true of most franchises, given the random patterns of services that BR ran versus the fairly simple clock face patterns that services evolved into) - 170s on the Brighton to Reading service, the extensions beyond Exeter that @REVUpminster mentioned above, SWT running to West Croydon feels like a long time ago now!

(I don't remember the two digit "codes" on any SWT services that I used, whereas I think this was still the case on the Connex bits of the old Southern Region, but this was based on my own limited personal use and the era before digital cameras/ camera phones so I can't really back this up)

Sir Felix Pole · 30 Oct 2021

South West Trains got off to a shaky start when early in 1997 it decided that 10% of drivers were surplus to requirements, leading to widespread cancellations. Stagecoach had assumed it would be like bus deregulation where there was fat to be cut and depots to close, whereas Network SE had actually become a pretty efficient organisation. They also did not bargain with its well-heeled and influential commuters having the audacity to complain - its hapless MD Brian Cox (a busman) then inflaming the situation by suggesting they were complaining in work time - did their bosses know? Stagecoach learnt quickly however, and it became a very well run railway with the franchise renewed and a large stock replacement programme put in motion.

Bald Rick · 31 Oct 2021

Snow1964 said:
In late 1990s the only stock less than 10 years old on SWT was the 442s and diesel 159s (and token quantity of 158s).

apart from all the slam door stock!

43096 · 31 Oct 2021

Snow1964 said:
In late 1990s the only stock less than 10 years old on SWT was the 442s and diesel 159s (and token quantity of 158s).

SWT didn't have any 158s in the late 90s; the first pair (158786/789) arrived in December 2004.

WesternLancer · 1 Nov 2021

After the shaky start due to driver shortages (think the management let too many ppl take voluntary redundancy maybe?) they were the best of the ex BR(SR) toc area services IMHO.
Connex SC were shockingly bad to travel with. South Eastern fairly poor too.

Fenchurch SP · 1 Nov 2021

yorksrob said:
The slam doors were lovely comfortable trains. And to their credit, SWT looked after them very well to the end (unlike others "cough Connex").

They had smoking carriages well into the 2000s. Were they the last TOC to get rid of them?

bramling · 1 Nov 2021

Fenchurch SP said:
They had smoking carriages well into the 2000s. Were they the last TOC to get rid of them?

GNER retained them later I think. The "Mallard" refurbishment provided for a small smoking area in one vehicle, which retained the frosted screen (providing a rather nice secluded small compartment at the north end of the train!). I presume the Mk4s still retain this to this day?

rf_ioliver · 1 Nov 2021

The 442s used to have first class compartments, which as a student I rarely had the chance to use. The guard's van was my usualy place with my bike, though on weekends on the Portsmouth-Guildford section this could get very crowded.
The 159s, didn't have much chance to use these, but pretty much the same as the RR 158s as I remember.

MarkWi72 · 1 Nov 2021

Like elsewhere, it was largely 442s and slam door stock. I lived in various South West London locales at the time (1995-2003) and recall the SW Trains were better than Thameslink and Connex.

StephenHunter · 1 Nov 2021

bramling said:
GNER retained them later I think. The "Mallard" refurbishment provided for a small smoking area in one vehicle, which retained the frosted screen (providing a rather nice secluded small compartment at the north end of the train!). I presume the Mk4s still retain this to this day?

Caledonian Sleeper had them in 2000; I'll have to check my national timetable for the others.

RichJF · 2 Nov 2021

South West Trains used to have a couple of quirky services that extended well into South Central territory as well.

West Croydon terminators and Brighton services. West Croydon used to be class 455. Brighton used to be a 159 (& later on a 450).

Strathclyder · 2 Nov 2021

I may cop a bit of flak for this, but I think the livery SWT used on the slammers, 455s and their 73 thunderbird loco was among the best of the early privatisation liveries. Slightly ironic I know, considering it was merely a reworked version of the NSE livery (linked images copyright of Martin Loader). The later 'swoop'-style livery worked best on the 170s (slightly outside the remit of this thread period-wise tho!) and 442s I thought.

3559 Micheldever 16 May 1998

73109 Potbridge 26 January 2000

PTR 444 · 2 Nov 2021

Interesting reading the comments. I notice a theme of positive experiences regarding the slam door stock in later years despite their age. Are there any units left which have been preserved in the SWT stripes livery and interiors as I’d be keen to experience what they were like during the early privatisation years.

StephenHunter · 2 Nov 2021

PTR 444 said:
Interesting reading the comments. I notice a theme of positive experiences regarding the slam door stock in later years despite their age. Are there any units left which have been preserved in the SWT stripes livery and interiors as I’d be keen to experience what they were like during the early privatisation years.

The livery, no, but the interior, yes.

Chinnor and Princes Risborough Railway has a 3CEP that operated the Lymington service.

Joe Paxton · 2 Nov 2021

Sir Felix Pole said:
South West Trains got off to a shaky start when early in 1997 it decided that 10% of drivers were surplus to requirements, leading to widespread cancellations. Stagecoach had assumed it would be like bus deregulation where there was fat to be cut and depots to close, whereas Network SE had actually become a pretty efficient organisation. They also did not bargain with its well-heeled and influential commuters having the audacity to complain - its hapless MD Brian Cox (a busman) then inflaming the situation by suggesting they were complaining in work time - did their bosses know? Stagecoach learnt quickly however, and it became a very well run railway with the franchise renewed and a large stock replacement programme put in motion.

This. Stagecoach well and truly got their fingers burnt at the beginning, and I think did a lot to inform an amended approach to running the franchise, with a wariness of contemplating any radical change - for example, they never really approached the issue of guards and DOO on suburban services, whilst similar suburban routes elsewhere in the south central and south eastern divisions had gone DOO before privatisation.

I think that early chaotic period also didn't do much for the general reputation of bus companies coming in to run train franchises.

nw1 · 5 Nov 2021

There was a similar thread on SWML services recently, but will just repeat the basic 1997 pattern out of Waterloo on the fast lines with indicative stock:

xx00 - Portsmouth fast, usually 442s
xx03 - Alton, fast to Woking, slam-door (VEPs and CIGs)
xx10 - Southampton fast, mix of 442s, 159s (despite being fully electric) and CIGs. Fast to Farnborough then Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway.
xx12 - Basingstoke or Portsmouth via Fareham (can't remember which) stopping, Clapham, Surbiton, Woking then all, VEPs and CIGs
xx20 - Portsmouth semi fast, Clapham Junction, Woking, Guildford then all, CIGs and BEPs, though buffet on BEPs was closed
xx24 - Haslemere stopping: Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, West Byfleet and then all, VEPs and CIGs
xx30 - Weymouth fast, 442s. Fast to Winchester at this time
xx33 - Farnham, Surbiton, Woking and all, VEPs and CIGs
xx35 - Exeter or Salisbury: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke then current patterns of Exeter or Salisbury services. Only hourly. Alternate hours Exeter or Salisbury (with some random extensions to Gillingham), with half-hourly service and extensions to Yeovil in the peaks. 159s.
xx40 - Portsmouth express, no Woking or Haslemere stop, usually 442s but CIGs near the peaks
xx42 - Basingstoke or Portsmouth via Fareham, as xx12
xx50 - Poole semi-fast, 442s. Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, Totton, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, then all
xx54 - Guildford stopping: pattern as per xx24

whoosh · 5 Nov 2021

I've heard various things about the 'Driver Shortage' at the beginning of Stagecoach.

One of the things was that they thought they had too many Drivers and offered voluntary redundancy. But they hadn't taken into account the route and traction knowledge of the depots. So the newly uncovered work couldn't be placed into existing diagrams like they'd hoped because of lack of knowledge.

Another thing I heard, was that it was the Management team who were retained from BR days who instigated this, as their Management Bid to run the franchise themselves hadn't been chosen - Stagecoach had won. Sour grapes became an opportunity to do over Stagecoach (don't feel too sorry for them though - remember Darlington buses!).
The story goes when Stagecoach realised, those responsible were told to clear their desks and got the boot!

Whether there is any truth in that I don't know, but its an interesting rumour.

I was told by an ex-SWT Driver that the RMT went into a meeting and the Management proposed a £100 bonus if all available rest days were worked by Drivers in 'x' period. The RMT agreed.
Then ASLEF went in, declined the £100, and with a bit of brinkmanship it ended up that the figure agreed was £1000.
Such was SWTs desperation at the mess it had got itself into.

AY1975 · 16 Nov 2021

As has been mentioned in a number of earlier threads, for a time in the late 1990s and early 2000s late evening and weekend Waterloo-Reading services were booked for 455s instead of the more usual slam-door units (mainly VEPs and occasional CIGs and CEPs).

When this change was first made, I remember seeing notices at Waterloo saying that it was being done to improve passenger safety because research had found that passengers felt safer in trains with open saloons, brighter interior lighting and fewer corridors and partitions. Presumably it was also done to maximise Standard Class seating capacity at times when very few First Class passengers were travelling. No doubt some passengers weren't happy about the 455s lacking the necessary facilities, though, and First Class commuters had to be careful not to miss the last train that was booked for slam-door units (the 19.56 Waterloo-Reading as I recall, with the 20.26 onwards being booked for 455s).

Bertie the bus · 16 Nov 2021

PTR 444 said:
Between 1996 and 2000:

How good was the reliability and quality of service compared to now?

The service was absolutely abysmal. It was so bad I gave up using it and drove into the City of London for a year instead. Even though it took twice as long and cost twice as much driving was still preferable.

yorksrob · 16 Nov 2021

AY1975 said:
No doubt some passengers weren't happy about the 455s lacking the necessary facilities,

Too darn right. Used to make me incandescent with rage when I lived in Reading.

AY1975 said:
No doubt some passengers weren't happy about the 455s lacking the necessary facilities,

Too darn right. Used to make me incandescent with rage when I lived in Reading.

nw1 · 16 Nov 2021

yorksrob said:
Too darn right. Used to make me incandescent with rage when I lived in Reading.

Too darn right. Used to make me incandescent with rage when I lived in Reading.

It does seem crazy to put a non-toilet unit on a service going as far as Reading when there were toilet units available. Particularly in the evening when people have been to the pub.

More generally, can't help but thinking that 455s should have been specified with toilets given some of the routes they're used on. OK Reading was a relatively recent invention but they worked to places well out of London, such as Dorking and Horsham, from pretty much the outset.

yorksrob · 16 Nov 2021

nickw1 said:
Can't help but thinking that 455s should have been specified with toilets given some of the routes they're used on. OK Reading was a relatively recent invention but they worked to places well out of London, such as Dorking and Horsham, from pretty much the outset.

True - that was an issue with them on the way back from the smoke, but I'd still have been incandescent with rage.

One can only wonder at how those "frightened" passengers were somehow unable to find an open Saloon in a CIG or a VEP !

norbitonflyer · 16 Nov 2021

Sir Felix Pole said:
its hapless MD Brian Cox (a busman) then inflaming the situation by suggesting they were complaining in work time - did their bosses know?

Well, SWT was making them late for work, so their bosses would probably not be happy with SWT either. (Since my first boss came to work on the same line as me, he actually encouraged me to do so, on his behalf as well as my own!)

I am reminded of Reginald Perrin (in work time) - "Take a letter, Joan. To the General Manager British Rail Southern Region. Every day my train is eleven minutes late. Why don't you amend your timetable to show all trains running eleven minutes later. Then they would all be on time. Yours etc Reginald Iolanthe Perrin"

What was South West Trains like in the late 1990s?

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