8-car Class 700 on Peterborough to Horsham service

Not sure if this falls in to any of rare, very rare or riotously rare - 8-car 700029 is on this evening's 1624 Peterborough to Horsham service.

It's the first time I've seen a RLU on such a service. I know RLU's on Bedford to Gatwick / Brighton services are a daily occurrence, and I know they also worked some King's Cross to Peterborough services during the chaos of 2018 on the GN, but this is the first time I've seen one on a Peterborough - Horsham.

Does anybody know how unusual today's working is?

Thanks.

Dave91131 said:

Not sure if this falls in to any of rare, very rare or riotously rare - 8-car 700029 is on this evening's 1624 Peterborough to Horsham service.

It's the first time I've seen a RLU on such a service. I know RLU's on Bedford to Gatwick / Brighton services are a daily occurrence, and I know they also worked some King's Cross to Peterborough services during the chaos of 2018 on the GN, but this is the first time I've seen one on a Peterborough - Horsham.

Does anybody know how unusual today's working is?

Thanks.

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It does happen, but if an 8-car is going to appear it's more likely on Cambridge to Brighton.

At one point there was a Saturday evening working which took a 700/0 on one of the afternoon fast Peterboroughs, then swapped over with a 700/1 to do a Horsham and back, spent the night at Peterborough Nene (also rare for 700/0s) then one of the Sunday fast Peterboroughs before ending up back at Hornsey. I can't recall if this still runs.

On that topic - what is the need for 8 car 700s vice a blanket fleet of 12 car units? I've never really understood that, as it leads to 8-car units being subbed in on ones where 12-car capacity is needed, such as the example of this thread during peak times.

Clansman said:

On that topic - what is the need for 8 car 700s vice a blanket fleet of 12 car units? I've never really understood that, as it leads to 8-car units being subbed in on ones where 12-car capacity is needed, such as the example of this thread during peak times.

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Some of the Thameslink routes have predominantly 8-car platforms, Sutton to St Albans being the main one, but also Cambridge to King's Cross (Maidstone East), Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks, Orpington to Luton and Rainham to Luton. The amount of work needed to allow regular 12-car on these varies. On top of this there is insufficient stabling for a fully 12-car fleet, for example Bedford Carriage Sidings has (IIRC) 14 roads, all of which are 8-car.

Having said that, someone got the adding up slightly wrong as there have never been quite enough 12-cars, and with Cambridge to Maidstone East now highly unlikely to happen there's at least 8x 700/0s more than there needed to be.

yeah, Cambridge-Kings Cross stopping service has a number of 8 and even 4 car platforms on the route- it was supposed to be married up to services on the south side that also couldn't use 12 car units. Much as infrastructure work throughout to have all-250m platforms in the former network south east area would be great it would also be expensive.

bramling said:

It does happen, but if an 8-car is going to appear it's more likely on Cambridge to Brighton.

At one point there was a Saturday evening working which took a 700/0 on one of the afternoon fast Peterboroughs, then swapped over with a 700/1 to do a Horsham and back, spent the night at Peterborough Nene (also rare for 700/0s) then one of the Sunday fast Peterboroughs before ending up back at Hornsey. I can't recall if this still runs.

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I think I can remember the working you refer to; I think it did ECS HE-KGX, 1836 KGX-PBO, then the 1954 to Horsham. I was always tempted to do it, but never did in favour of an earlier pair of 365's or 387's.

Clansman said:

On that topic - what is the need for 8 car 700s vice a blanket fleet of 12 car units? I've never really understood that, as it leads to 8-car units being subbed in on ones where 12-car capacity is needed, such as the example of this thread during peak times.

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The Sutton Loop and Sevenoaks/Bat and Ball services is a big is a big reason whay 8 coach trains are needed. 12 coach class 700's would overhang the junction at Tulse Hill and other locations.

The Luton - Rainham services could run as 12 coach class 700's if more were built though.

A first for me to see a RLU on a Horsham service.
It leads to a second question how are the RLU's cycled to and from the GN side, is it a select few Brighton runs.

westcoaster said:

A first for me to see a RLU on a Horsham service.
It leads to a second question how are the RLU's cycled to and from the GN side, is it a select few Brighton runs.

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Put simply, they aren’t cycled.

westcoaster said:

A first for me to see a RLU on a Horsham service.
It leads to a second question how are the RLU's cycled to and from the GN side, is it a select few Brighton runs.

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Unless @OFFDN knows something I don't, I think they are cycled by either ECS workings between Hornsey and Three Bridges when required or by substituting for a 12-car on an end of day Cambridge to Brighton service.

westcoaster said:

A first for me to see a RLU on a Horsham service.
It leads to a second question how are the RLU's cycled to and from the GN side, is it a select few Brighton runs.

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There is a Hornsey - Three Bridges - Hornsey ECS path which is booked to run each weekday, though some days it is cancelled.

For the first few months after May 18 there was one set of units which stayed on the GN. These then got changed over at some point. Then in one of the subsequent timetables the ECS path was built in. Nowadays 700/0s stick on the GN side for varying periods - sometimes they only stay for a few days, sometimes they last for a couple of months or more.

The future Welwyn/Sevenoaks service gives the opportunity for something built in to the timetable.

There’s still a very small handful of units which don’t appear to have worked on the GN side - something like 700003, 700005, 700047 and 700053, unless they’ve sneaked up there and back on diagrams which start and finish elsewhere. Possibly 700027 as well, this was at Hornsey for a while but I’m not sure it ever came out to play before going back.

As per @bramling’s post above - I distinctly remember RLUs on Peterborough services for some time. But I think those might have been on Great Northern duty i.e. going into KGX.

D365 said:

As per @bramling’s post above - I distinctly remember RLUs on Peterborough services for some time. But I think those might have been on Great Northern duty i.e. going into KGX.

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They did a few services during the pre May 18 period for sure. The first GN 700 services were 700/1, but a later stage saw some 700/0s too. Since May 18 they have been no stranger to Peterborough on the weekend fast services too

OFFDN said:

Put simply, they aren’t cycled.

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They must be, I only need 3 more on the TL side for the year.

westcoaster said:

They must be, I only need 3 more on the TL side for the year.

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As has been stated above, they aren't cycled by the normal timetable. They are moved to/from Hornsey as required by means of a stock transfer path which is available to run each weekday.

I wrote ‘put simply’ because the long answer is they are cycled, but not during normal service.

I believe there is one path each way on a weekday as indetified above but I’m sure someone said that it’s on the same drivers duty as post-maintenance trips out of Hornsey DEPOT. So if there are 387/717/700 at Hornsey off maintenance that need a run out, then the driver does that rather than swap 700 between the depots.

OFFDN said:

I wrote ‘put simply’ because the long answer is they are cycled, but not during normal service.

I believe there is one path each way on a weekday as indetified above but I’m sure someone said that it’s on the same drivers duty as post-maintenance trips out of Hornsey DEPOT. So if there are 387/717/700 at Hornsey off maintenance that need a run out, then the driver does that rather than swap 700 between the depots.

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Yes this seems to be correct, as the transfer path isn't always a 700/0, and sometimes the same unit comes back.

The Hornsey/Three Bridges transfers are a bit random, some units don't stay long on the GN, whilst others stay for ages.

Well, I’ve read the thread twice but still can’t work out what an RLU is.

Lemmy99uk said:

Well, I’ve read the thread twice but still can’t work out what an RLU is.

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RLU = Reduced Length Unit = 8-car Class 700/0
FLU = Full length Unit = 12-car Class 700/1

The same terminology is used for the Crossrail Class 345s, where:
RLU = 7-car
FLU = 9-car
Although in this case the RLUs will (eventually) all be converted to FLUs.

Lemmy99uk said:

Well, I’ve read the thread twice but still can’t work out what an RLU is.

Click to expand...

RLU is an acronym for Reduced Length Unit
700/0
8-car unit

If you look at the stop boards on the platform, you will see RLU, FLU or ALL to ensure the 700s stop in the right place.

A 12-car 700/1 is referred to as a FLU or full length unit.

The 8-car units omit carriages 4, 5, 8 and 9 relative to a 12-car unit.

The nomenclature has also found its way into describing 7-car 345s as RLUs and 9-car 345s as FLUs.

Dave91131 said:

Not sure if this falls in to any of rare, very rare or riotously rare - 8-car 700029 is on this evening's 1624 Peterborough to Horsham service.

It's the first time I've seen a RLU on such a service. I know RLU's on Bedford to Gatwick / Brighton services are a daily occurrence, and I know they also worked some King's Cross to Peterborough services during the chaos of 2018 on the GN, but this is the first time I've seen one on a Peterborough - Horsham.

Does anybody know how unusual today's working is?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Definitely unusual but not the first time. I've been on an 8 car at the weekend but that's the only time I've seen it happen.

Thameslink really did need to turn 6 to 8 of the RLU into FLU to provide sufficient 12 car units for the services operated. But there remains insufficient stabling on the Network.
Neither this nor any chance of retrofitting seatback tables to standardize across the fleet will happen now that DfT are holding the purse strings post COVID.

MML said:

Thameslink really did need to turn 6 to 8 of the RLU into FLU to provide sufficient 12 car units for the services operated. But there remains insufficient stabling on the Network.
Neither this nor any chance of retrofitting seatback tables to standardize across the fleet will happen now that DfT are holding the purse strings post COVID.

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Why? Most 8 Cars are kept on "Metro" style routes, where 8 Car is the max for most platforms (ignoring SDO). 12's are on the Brighton-Bedford / Cambridge, Horsham -PBO and Bedford - Gatwick circuits.

12 cars on the "Metro" routes isn't practicable and those services are increasing, like the Sevenoaks to Blackfriars is planned to go to Welywn GC, which requires more RLUs

Fincra5 said:

Why? Most 8 Cars are kept on "Metro" style routes, where 8 Car is the max for most platforms (ignoring SDO). 12's are on the Brighton-Bedford / Cambridge, Horsham -PBO and Bedford - Gatwick circuits.

12 cars on the "Metro" routes isn't practicable and those services are increasing, like the Sevenoaks to Blackfriars is planned to go to Welywn GC, which requires more RLUs

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I don’t see why Welwyn-Sevenoaks should require more units, as both routes have a 15-minute turnround at the London end currently. Assuming they keep the same paths (which I thought were already laid out on the basis of running through) then presumably things should stay the same. Obviously the peak Welwyn services haven’t run since Covid, so that’s three units spare.

There is definitely a shortage of 700/1 though. 8 cars appearing on the 12 car routes has been common since day one, both booked and unplanned. The booked diagrams don’t always manage to avoid busy services.

bramling said:

There is definitely a shortage of 700/1 though. 8 cars appearing on the 12 car routes has been common since day one, both booked and unplanned. The booked diagrams don’t always manage to avoid busy services.

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Although the trunk Bedford / Peterborough / Cambridge to Brighton / Gatwick / Horsham / (Littlehampton / East Grinstead) routes have always been considered 12-car routes it has never been obvious that any of the workings could have been tighter to only utilise 12-car units so perhaps there was a view that 8-car units would have to do some of the workings on these services when the fleet size of 55 12-car units was set. The cycling of units to and from Three Bridges and restrictions at Bedford seems to fit with the number of 8-car units in use on these routes so maybe it was planned (although I agree that it was difficult to hide the 8-cars in the pre-March 2020 timetable).

JonathanH said:

Although the trunk Bedford / Peterborough / Cambridge to Brighton / Gatwick / Horsham / (Littlehampton / East Grinstead) routes have always been considered 12-car routes it has never been obvious that any of the workings could have been tighter to only utilise 12-car units so perhaps there was a view that 8-car units would have to do some of the workings on these services when the fleet size of 55 12-car units was set. The cycling of units to and from Three Bridges and restrictions at Bedford seems to fit with the number of 8-car units in use on these routes so maybe it was planned (although I agree that it was difficult to hide the 8-cars in the pre-March 2020 timetable).

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Yes I think you’re right that it was planned, though it’s pretty common for 8 cars to appear on 12 car diagrams as well, which does indicate the 12-car fleet is stretched (pre Covid at least).

In fact, with reliability always having lagged, I’m not sure how Cambridge - Maidstone could have been implemented without causing significant issues. I simply don’t see where the units were going to come from for it. A unit might be saved on turnaround at King’s Cross, but running to Maidstone and back would I imagine require around 3-4 units. They simply don’t have that many available as far as I can see.

Luton-Rainham uses a lot of units, and it seems this may be where the Maidstone units have gone. The long run out to Maidstone must use more units than Tottenham Corner would have done.

bramling said:

I don’t see why Welwyn-Sevenoaks should require more units, as both routes have a 15-minute turnround at the London end currently. Assuming they keep the same paths (which I thought were already laid out on the basis of running through) then presumably things should stay the same. Obviously the peak Welwyn services haven’t run since Covid, so that’s three units spare.

There is definitely a shortage of 700/1 though. 8 cars appearing on the 12 car routes has been common since day one, both booked and unplanned. The booked diagrams don’t always manage to avoid busy services.

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Very non scientific confirmation that the paths are there is that when the sun shines and all is right with the world the Sevenoaks Service comes in at XX 27 , you saunter across to platform 2 and board the Bedford Service wish leaves immediately so much so that the journey is shorter than if you'd caught the direct Luton one. On other days when it's cold, wet and a gale is is blowing up the Thames the Bedford Service closes its door's in tandem with the opening of yours you have 7 long minutes in the Coldest station in London to reflect on the irony that the gap is of such a such a length to accommodate the Path for the train you just got off going North...

Also the May 22 consultation time tables gave the trains leaving STP Pancras towards Sevenoaks at the time they were scheduled too back in May 18 and in the same 10/ 20 min service patten as before XX:07 XX:37 Sevenoaks; XX:17 XX:47 Orpington

bramling said:

I don’t see why Welwyn-Sevenoaks should require more units, as both routes have a 15-minute turnround at the London end currently. Assuming they keep the same paths (which I thought were already laid out on the basis of running through) then presumably things should stay the same.

Click to expand...

The last time I checked, the timings did tie up perfectly to run through.

bramling said:

I don’t see why Welwyn-Sevenoaks should require more units, as both routes have a 15-minute turnround at the London end currently. Assuming they keep the same paths (which I thought were already laid out on the basis of running through) then presumably things should stay the same. Obviously the peak Welwyn services haven’t run since Covid, so that’s three units spare.

There is definitely a shortage of 700/1 though. 8 cars appearing on the 12 car routes has been common since day one, both booked and unplanned. The booked diagrams don’t always manage to avoid busy services.

Click to expand...

Why? Well for starters it take more than 15mins to get to Welywn GC from Blackfrairs. Min Turn around is about 5mins... Do the math.

As for that, daily im on the core and 9.9/10 its a 12 car on a booked 12 car. 8 cars are rare for 12

Fincra5 said:

Why? Well for starters it take more than 15mins to get to Welywn GC from Blackfrairs. Min Turn around is about 5mins... Do the math.

As for that, daily im on the core and 9.9/10 its a 12 car on a booked 12 car. 8 cars are rare for 12

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It may be the case that 8 vice 12 is rarer *now*, but it wasn’t before March 2020. At the moment there’s the luxury of a number of 12-car peak services not running, in particular many of those to Littlehampton or East Grinstead.

As regards Welwyn, it takes 15 mins to get from Belle Isle to Blackfriars. With a roughly 15 minute turnaround booked in the normal timetable, this puts each train onto its opposing path the other side of the river.

Meanwhile, here is the math:

As per the abortive May 2020 timetable:
6x Blackfriars - Sevenoaks 700/0 diagrams, TB427, TB430, TB433, TB434, TB435, TB443.
11x GN 700/0 diagrams, TB445, TB446, TB447, TB448, TB449, TB450, TB451, TB452, TB453, TB454, TB455.
Of the 11x GN diagrams, TB447 and TB454 stabled midday at Hornsey, TB452 stabled midday at Welwyn CS. This makes the total number of units for the Welwyn peak extras equal 3x.

This gives 6x units for Blackfriars - Sevenoaks, 3x units for King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City, and 8x units for King's Cross - Cambridge. Total - 17x.


If we now take a typical pair of Welwyn Garden City - King's Cross and Blackfriars - Sevenoaks services (helpfully they even keep a similar reporting number either side of the Thames):
2Y05 0532 Welwyn Garden City - King's Cross (arr 0606)
9Y05 0616 Blackfriars - Sevenoaks (arr 0727)
9Y10 0745 Sevenoaks - Blackfriars (arr 0859)
2Y10 0906 King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City (arr 0942)
This gives a complete Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City rounder of 4 hrs 30 mins including turnrounds.

As can be seen, were the service to be all day then the 0942 arrival would then form a hypothetical 1002 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks. To spell it out:
0532 - diagram 1
0602 - diagram 2
0632 - diagram 3
0702 - diagram 4
0732 - diagram 5
0802 - diagram 6
0832 - diagram 7
0902 - diagram 8
0932 - diagram 9
1002 - diagram 1 ... and so on.

Mysteriously enough, this adds up to 9x diagrams, the same as 3x King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City + 6x Blackfriars - Sevenoaks.

Meanwhile, to confirm the remaining King's Cross - Cambridge service makes 8x units:
2C20 1121 King's Cross - Cambridge (arr 1254)
2C37 1327 Cambridge - King's Cross (arr 1450)- forms 2C36 1521 King's Cross - Cambridge

1121 - diagram 1
1151 - diagram 2
1221 - diagram 3
1251 - diagram 4
1321 - diagram 5
1351 - diagram 6
1421 - diagram 7
1451 - diagram 8
1521 - diagram 1 ... and so on..

As stated above, this adds up to 8x diagrams.

Add together 9x for Welwyn Garden City-Sevenoaks and 8x for King's Cross-Cambridge, and this totals up to...

Total - 17x; the same total as 6x Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks, 8x King's Cross - Cambridge and 3x King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City.


For interest, in the same timetable, 55/60 700/0 were diagrammed running duties each day, versus 51/55 700/1. Two interesting take-aways from that, firstly the 700/1s have a slightly more demanding utilisation, and secondly where are any units for Maidstone going to come from?