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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway
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WarrenTManager
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Indeed when Ashford closed Bombardier completed the C61 programme at Ilford. Bournemouth did all of the C62 overhauls and had done the C4 for many years. The C62 was around halfway through when AC traction started.
Realtime Trains | 5Q40 0845 Eastleigh Trsmd to Staines Up Loop | 03/01/2022
Real-time train running information for 5Q40 0845 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Staines Up Loop on 03/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Realtime Trains | 5Q10 0952 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 05/01/2022
Real-time train running information for 5Q10 0952 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 05/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
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spark001uk
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47727 + 701017Another one coming down from Derby today.Realtime Trains | 5Q10 0952 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 05/01/2022
Real-time train running information for 5Q10 0952 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 05/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.www.realtimetrains.co.uk
WWTownEnth
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Any idea which number?
Snow1964
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Should have been 17 10car units in service by 8th December 2019
so this set is over 650 days late being delivered, a rather poor reflection on the build team.
...and some here moan about the lateness of 769s.
Goldfish62
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From what I've been told from someone involved in the testing program the moans are more than justified....and some here moan about the lateness of 769s.
The 701 are just the latest versions of the Aventra platform, Bombardier's replacement for their bread and butter Electrostar range. They've already produced 70 class 345s, , 55 class 710s, 145 class 720 & 81 class 730s. The whole family has many common design features and they are all under Bombardier's control. One might assume that after turning out 1914 cars of a generic design that another 750 would be quite simple for a competent manufacturer, especially as this is in the prime of the product's life. That's a whole lot easier than an experiemental conversion of some 30+ year-old EMUs into diesel-electric bi-modes.
Goldfish62
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So you think that the huge delay to the 769 programme plus the chronic unreliability of those that have entered service so far is OK? There was nothing experimental about these trains. They were sold as bi-mode units which would work and would be delivered on time. The TOCs which ordered them did not do so on the basis of them being "experimental". They ordered on the basis that they'd work.
No I didn't say that the problems with them are OK, - please try to not imagine things in my post that aren't there.
My point is that the 701 debacle is an abject failure of a manufacturer that wants to be considered the 'goto' supplier of UK EMUs. In reality they are unreliable as a supplier when they cannot turn out more of the same somewhat mundane series of rolling stock. That situation is what this thread is about.
Goldfish62
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Your post #3217 certainly gave the impression that you thought that complaints about the 769s were ill-considered.
But anyway, let's move on. I agree completely with your view of Bombardier's failure.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
I think that is the problem (in bold). I may be wrong but none of those classes are complete save for the 345 of which I believe the last one was delivered last week. Have all the 710s been delivered yet ? Maybe half the 720s and practically no 730s. Bombardier took orders for over 2800 vehicles to be assembled in just one factory. Timescales were compromised in my view.
Indeed. To be fair they have built a lot of the 701s, they just don't work and aren't built very well.
Gag Halfrunt
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On top of all the Aventras, they've also been building monorail trains for Cairo.
Wyrleybart
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In your view, do you think the 701s are a poorer build than the 710s and 720s ?
fgwrich
Established Member
Having looked at a few 701s close up, yes. I was particularly unimpressed with the rather poorly applied 'tape' to seal over the joins which looked like it was starting to come away already. Considering the doors haven't fallen off or come open on the other Aventra fleets as well, then it further backs up my poor opinion of them.
We're also now in 2022, still with no sign of any entry into traffic, and now rolling into their third year of lateness.
BBC South Today has picked up the story, with a pretty damming statement from SWR explaining that they are still waiting for Alstom to supply them with a working train that can be signed off for training. When the question was put to Alstom, they had “Nothing further to say”. Ouch.
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Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Courtesy of a poster on the 707 thread SWR released a press release earlier where they cite issues with the class 701's being the primary cause why 12 707 units are being retained. The press release is here but the pertinent comment re 701's should leave no one any doubt that as far as SWR are concerned this is an Alstom problem.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
The three year delay is very bad but not enormously worse than the 710s, really, or perhaps the 385/720s, which I’m sure were two years.
Anyway, SWR’s (rightfully rather scathing) statement here pretty much confirms that they’re continuing to hold out for the 701s, which hopefully disspells the absolute nonsensical claims by some that they will be mothballed — despite the 455 fleet being knackered, 458 fleet being a mix of off-lease, not working, off for refurbishment and in service, the 450s stretched to the MAX impacting mainline services, and around twenty 701s now on SWR territory. Not to mention the fact that the ninety strong fleet could not be cancelled without another replacement, which would take a minimum of two and a half years, if not three - or longer judging from experience - to enter service.
If the 701s take another 18 months to enter service, it will be a farce and the 455s covering for them will have good as rotted to the core, but it will still mean new trains for passengers before a new order would.
As for the 18 707s returning from SouthEastern, the powers that be will NEVER give themselves the PR disaster of SE giving back their “brand new” trains that they made a big PR song and dance about before, just to solve a different TOC’s PR disaster - one that was partially self inflicted by their order.
Anyway, SWR’s (rightfully rather scathing) statement here pretty much confirms that they’re continuing to hold out for the 701s, which hopefully disspells the absolute nonsensical claims by some that they will be mothballed — despite the 455 fleet being knackered, 458 fleet being a mix of off-lease, not working, off for refurbishment and in service, the 450s stretched to the MAX impacting mainline services, and around twenty 701s now on SWR territory. Not to mention the fact that the ninety strong fleet could not be cancelled without another replacement, which would take a minimum of two and a half years, if not three - or longer judging from experience - to enter service.
If the 701s take another 18 months to enter service, it will be a farce and the 455s covering for them will have good as rotted to the core, but it will still mean new trains for passengers before a new order would.
As for the 18 707s returning from SouthEastern, the powers that be will NEVER give themselves the PR disaster of SE giving back their “brand new” trains that they made a big PR song and dance about before, just to solve a different TOC’s PR disaster - one that was partially self inflicted by their order.
Goldfish62
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Yes, it's pretty damning. Fair play to SWR for being upfront and honest.
I spoke to one of the guys driving them on commissioning runs a couple of months ago. He seemed far from impressed to be honest.
DanNCL
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That’s an incredibly poor response from Alstom, but not surprising as they seem to have contempt for anyone that dares disagree with their (usually wrong) opinion.
The 385s were 7 months late entering service. Even though they were subsequently grounded for a month shortly afterwards, they’d settled down into reliable service within little more than a year of their originally intended entry into service date. They’re not a comparable example at all.
It confirms nothing of the sort, in fact it may even be hinting that cancelling the order is an option they’re considering as that statement isn’t too dissimilar to one ÖBB issued a few months prior to cancelling their Talent 3 order. I’ve previously discussed the comparisons between the ÖBB and SWR situations in the relevant thread in the speculation section of the forums.
As for the point regarding the 450s the situation isn’t that bad. 12 car diagrams have been shortened to allow the units to work elsewhere where they’re actually needed - 12 car formations are overkill for almost all of the work 450s have with current passenger numbers. It really isn’t the end of the world if people have to sit closer together because a 12 car formation has been shortened to 8 car.
The TOC that was making a PR song and dance about the 707s ceased to exist in October 2021. OLR operated Southeastern likely couldn’t care less as they can simply point the finger at the defunct private operator, much like LNER did in 2018 with VTEC.
Gag Halfrunt
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With the 701s Alstom are probably well into the territory where any statement would have to be drafted under legal advice and approved in advance by the board of directors in Paris.
I'm a little surprised they haven't put a statement out pointing the finger at their predecessors, seems an easy win for public opinion?
I think this is a case of no PR is the best PR, admitting fault would bring a lot of attention to them while pushing this all on Bombardier while not wrong wouldn't go that well with the former Bombardier employees which have joined the company.
If they had loads of confidence then the statement would have the typical PR stuff on how these trains will be revolutionary, there is a slight hint with the "and will deliver consistently better journeys for customers and colleagues" but it isn't near the normal PR stuff which gets put out for new trains.
Peter Sarf
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I would go further. The 701s are now Alstom's problem. If Alstom blame the problems on Bombardier they are just admitting the trains they have to sell are rubbish. That does not make the trains more likely to be accepted by SWR and might make them easier for SWR to reject.
I wonder if Alstom knew what they were taking on ?.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Alstom initially suggested E5.9 to 6.2B when the acquisition was announced in Feb 2020 but final price agreed was E5.5B so they've got a few Euros spare. At the end of the day Alstom was after the global reach that Bombardier had so it will soak up the Aventra issues in the short term and ultimately if the DofT was that bothered they wouldn't awarded them the HS2 contract.
fgwrich
Established Member
Exactly so. I wonder if the realisation of the problem has started to reach the walls of Paris yet? The 701 saga inherited from Bombardier certainly isn't doing Alstom's reputation in the UK any good either, and those of you who remember Alstom's poor reputation at the turn of the millennium will remember the steep climb it's taken them to regain any form of credible reputation in the UK Rolling Stock market again.
Mordac
Established Member
They'll soon be here to do to Derby what they did to Washwood Heath, and then probably get a medal from Macron for it.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Thing is GA are busily putting a new 720 into traffic every day and the 710's are plying there trade on LO without too many dramas so what is it about the 701's that leaves them sidelined? There clearly not fundamentally unsafe otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in traffic and at full line speed. Its about time both sides came clean and give a full account of what the underlying issues are what is being done about it.