Rail & Sail ticket to Dublin via Holyhead

nick468 · 17 Jan 2022

Hi there,

I am trying to book a Rail and Sail ticket from London Euston to Dublin, via the Holyhead terminal for 20:15 on Sunday. However, after this Thursday coming, all Rail/Sail tickets are showing up as either sold out or not available on the various TOC web sites, as well as TheTrainline.

I've tried contacting the two ferry providers over the Irish Sea - Irish Ferries and Stena Line who have referred me onto National Rail enquiries. In turn I did contact National Rail enquiries who were not able to offer any advice. I've been advised to contact the Irish Ferries freight manager tomorrow.

From looking through TheTrainLine, it's showing every journey up to February 1 as being sold out after Thursday. And on February 1, it's showing as 'Tickets coming soon'.

I find it hard to believe - in my experience there's normally room to spare on the ferries. I've also tried two separate journeys - London to Holyhead and Holyhead to Dublin, and it's possible to book these journeys - albeit at a much higher price (£117 vs £50).

Is there anything anyone can suggest? Obviously, I'd be keen to avoid the costly Sunday night flights if I can avoid them!

Look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for taking the time to read.

RailUK Forums

Flying Snail · 17 Jan 2022

The rail ticketing system has a quota applied for these tickets, it sounds like they have not been loaded at all for some reason, if it was 1 of the ferry operators then possibly the problem would be there but as it is both then it's going to be some issue with the railway system.

Unfortunately unless this is resolved there is no way to buy the tickets as the rail reservation requires the reservation being available.

In Ireland you can just buy from Stena or IF in person or over the phone but unless you can get them to issue a ticket TO Ireland and have a friend/relative get the tickets sent to you (they are handwritten dockets not available as e-tickets) then it is no use to you, at least for the westbound trip, you can always use that method for your return journey.

nick468 · 17 Jan 2022

Flying Snail said:
The rail ticketing system has a quota applied for these tickets, it sounds like they have not been loaded at all for some reason, if it was 1 of the ferry operators then possibly the problem would be there but as it is both then it's going to be some issue with the railway system.

Unfortunately unless this is resolved there is no way to buy the tickets as the rail reservation requires the reservation being available.

In Ireland you can just buy from Stena or IF in person or over the phone but unless you can get them to issue a ticket TO Ireland and have a friend/relative get the tickets sent to you (they are handwritten dockets not available as e-tickets) then it is no use to you, at least for the westbound trip, you can always use that method for your return journey.

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I do actually live in Ireland. Is there a way around this by being here? I can visit the Irish Ferries desk in Dublin if I really needed to.
- Nick

Flying Snail · 17 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I do actually live in Ireland. Is there a way around this by being here? I can visit the Irish Ferries desk in Dublin if I really needed to.
- Nick

Yes you can just go to IF or Stena at Dublin Port and buy from them there. Stena will also sell over the phone at 01 907 5388 to be collected at the port, IF also sell them on their website.

If you are making a return trip IRL-GB-IRL then just buy that from Dublin, purchasing immediately before your outbound departure is fine.

If for some reason you only want a GB-IRL ticket then you may have difficulty, I have never tried to do that and while there is no technical restriction they may not be allowed sell them for inbound single journeys to Ireland, best ring Stena on the above number before making a trip to the port.

danm14 · 17 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Is there anything anyone can suggest?

Waiting.

The ferries are not full, someone has forgotten to load the quota of Sail and Rail tickets into the railway system. I believe Transport for Wales are responsible for this, so they may be the ones to contact. I am unsure what the Irish Ferries freight manager would be able to do for you....

You will never pay more than £50 for a London-Dublin Sail and Rail ticket, even if you purchase it five minutes prior to departure, so there is no need to book in advance as there would be with a journey in the UK.

If it is of any addition to you, Luton-Dublin on Monday morning arriving 7:45am is currently less than £19 with Ryanair, and Stansted-Dublin arriving 9:50am is currently £12. I mention this as you specifically state that you want to avoid expensive flights, rather than flight altogether. Both flights have rail connections from London at an appropriate time for the departure.

nick468 said:
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I do actually live in Ireland. Is there a way around this by being here? I can visit the Irish Ferries desk in Dublin if I really needed to.
- Nick

Neither Irish Ferries nor Stena Line will issue a ticket from Britain to Ireland in Ireland (unless it is the return leg of a return Ireland-Britain-Ireland journey).

They must be purchased via a rail ticket retailer in Britain.

Envoy · 17 Jan 2022

Nothing like having cheapo airlines as competition to drive down rail fares. So, it is cheaper to go by train from London (& other places in England) to Dublin by train & ship than it is to go to Wales.

nick468 · 17 Jan 2022

Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciate it.
I hear you re: the cheap flights, but I'd need to be back in Limerick by 9am - 9.30am on Monday morning and unfortunately Rail and Sail is the only reasonable way I can do it.

I'll give TfW a call tomorrow - and all going well, I might even be able to get the fare as a walk-up ticket on the day.

Nick

Flying Snail · 18 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciate it.
I hear you re: the cheap flights, but I'd need to be back in Limerick by 9am - 9.30am on Monday morning and unfortunately Rail and Sail is the only reasonable way I can do it.

I'll give TfW a call tomorrow - and all going well, I might even be able to get the fare as a walk-up ticket on the day.

Nick

I would suggest you moderate your expectations for getting this resolved.

The chances of getting someone on the phone who is interested enough to help, knowledgeable enough to understand what you are asking and has the ability and authority to fix the issue is going to be very low.

Definitely do not leave it and expect the ticket to be available on the day of departure from Euston, you will be left faced with an expensive combination of walk-up separate tickets.

Mainline421 · 18 Jan 2022

If you're in Ireland then any Iarnród Éireann station from the list at the bottom of this page: https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/rail-fares-and-tickets/sailrail-uk-ferry can sell them, as well as the ports, and neither should be affected by the error.

It's possible for a ticket office in the UK to isssue a walk-up ticket without reservation, although I think they aren't supposed to sell one without a reservation on the ferry leg at present.

paul1609 · 18 Jan 2022

I don't think it's a Sail-Rail issue, the omnicron Avanti timetable shows the last connection to Holyhead as leaving at 18.20 with a change at Crewe. The tfw timetable is not yet confirmed for Sunday. It's not possible to buy a ticket to Holyhead with reservations.

nick468 · 18 Jan 2022

paul1609 said:
I don't think it's a Sail-Rail issue, the omnicron Avanti timetable shows the last connection to Holyhead as leaving at 18.20 with a change at Crewe. The tfw timetable is not yet confirmed for Sunday. It's not possible to buy a ticket to Holyhead with reservations.

Hi,
Transport for Wales told me something like this too. They've insisted that the ticket will be available on a walk-up basis. But obviously I'd be a bit fearful of being stranded!
Nick

Trainbike46 · 18 Jan 2022

Unfortunately this seems to be a bigger issue affecting not just Dublin via Holyhead SailRail tickets, but also the Belfast via Cairnryan SailRail tickets. Which is funny, as that route has a different fare-setter (Scotrail), and makes me wonder if something bigger is going on?

I ended up in the stranded situation going back home to NI after christmas, so if I were you I'd buy a return from Dublin if at all possible!

paul1609 said:
I don't think it's a Sail-Rail issue, the omnicron Avanti timetable shows the last connection to Holyhead as leaving at 18.20 with a change at Crewe. The tfw timetable is not yet confirmed for Sunday. It's not possible to buy a ticket to Holyhead with reservations.

Shouldn't it be possible to buy a SailRail without a reservation on the train leg though?

danm14 · 18 Jan 2022

Trainbike46 said:
Unfortunately this seems to be a bigger issue affecting not just Dublin via Holyhead SailRail tickets, but also the Belfast via Cairnryan SailRail tickets. Which is funny, as that route has a different fare-setter (Scotrail), and

Stena Line have suspended Rail and Sail via Cairnryan again.

Sail & Rail | Stena Line

www.stenaline.ie

"Due to the emergency Covid timetable introduced by ScotRail, the Sail & Rail service via the Belfast to Cairnryan route is currently suspended. As soon as this is going to re-start we will update the information on this page."

janb · 18 Jan 2022

Trainbike46 said:
Shouldn't it be possible to buy a SailRail without a reservation on the train leg though?

Yes, but for these journeys I can confirm that the ferries are lacking reservations so there is a rail-sail issue here, albeit that it might be part of a wider TfW malaise others have suggested.

paul1609 · 18 Jan 2022

Trainbike46 said:
Unfortunately this seems to be a bigger issue affecting not just Dublin via Holyhead SailRail tickets, but also the Belfast via Cairnryan SailRail tickets. Which is funny, as that route has a different fare-setter (Scotrail), and makes me wonder if something bigger is going on?

I ended up in the stranded situation going back home to NI after christmas, so if I were you I'd buy a return from Dublin if at all possible!

Shouldn't it be possible to buy a SailRail without a reservation on the train leg though?

janb said:
Yes, but for these journeys I can confirm that the ferries are lacking reservations so there is a rail-sail issue here, albeit that it might be part of a wider TfW malaise others have suggested.

If tfw haven't confirmed their rail timetable I don't see how the rail system would know which ferry to book someone on. If the system can't do that it's pointless loading the ferry schedule.
The train the op was hoping to catch arrives just before 1 am on a Monday morning, the chances of that running are probably quite low.
The Sail-Rail market is pretty small, last time I travelled overnight (pre covid) to Galway there were about half a dozen people on this train on arrival at Holyhead. On the return on the early morning departure from Holyhead there were 3 passengers. I guess its not tfw priority.

nick468 · 18 Jan 2022

Hi there,

Contacted TFW via its Twitter help platform.

Here's the thread.

https://twitter.com/tfwrail/status/1483418829711712259

Make of that what you will - very non-committal in terms of availability.

- Nick

Flying Snail · 18 Jan 2022

paul1609 said:
If tfw haven't confirmed their rail timetable I don't see how the rail system would know which ferry to book someone on. If the system can't do that it's pointless loading the ferry schedule.
The train the op was hoping to catch arrives just before 1 am on a Monday morning, the chances of that running are probably quite low.
The Sail-Rail market is pretty small, last time I travelled overnight (pre covid) to Galway there were about half a dozen people on this train on arrival at Holyhead. On the return on the early morning departure from Holyhead there were 3 passengers. I guess its not tfw priority.

And conversely I have been on sailings where extra buses have been needed to transfer all the foot passengers, no idea how many were rail-sail as I didn't conduct a poll.

The overnight sailings have dropped in popularity due to the awful train connections, no sane person will voluntarily spend 4 hours at night in Holyhead a second time.

The daytime and the 02.15 ex Dublin which does have reasonable train connections however had been consistently well used.

You are correct about it not being a priority for TFW and Arriva before that, if it had then the overnight connections would still exist rather than a train arriving at Holyhead conveniently 10 minutes too late to allow the minimum ferry connection for over a decade.

hilly · 18 Jan 2022

The Holyhead to Dublin tickets may be a bit thin on the ground as the 6 nations starts with Ireland v Wales in dublin on Saturday 5th feb

nick468 · 18 Jan 2022

From my Twitter query, which yielded much more info than the telephone, it appears tickets will be available Thursday or Friday
https://twitter.com/tfwrail/status/1483418829711712259

Fingers crossed - although still feeling a tiny bit sceptical. Anyone pick anything up from the replies from TFW here?

paul1609 · 18 Jan 2022

Flying Snail said:
And conversely I have been on sailings where extra buses have been needed to transfer all the foot passengers, no idea how many were rail-sail as I didn't conduct a poll.

The overnight sailings have dropped in popularity due to the awful train connections, no sane person will voluntarily spend 4 hours at night in Holyhead a second time.

The daytime and the 02.15 ex Dublin which does have reasonable train connections however had been consistently well used.

You are correct about it not being a priority for TFW and Arriva before that, if it had then the overnight connections would still exist rather than a train arriving at Holyhead conveniently 10 minutes too late to allow the minimum ferry connection for over a decade.

We know that Sail-Rail business is pretty low. In a normal year Holyhead has around 200,000 entries and exits including sail rail, last year it was down to 40,000. To put this into context the next major station along the coast Bangor gets three times that on domestic only business.

danm14 · 18 Jan 2022

paul1609 said:
In a normal year Holyhead has around 200,000 entries and exits including sail rail, last year it was down to 40,000.

Ireland was in lockdown and SailRail was suspended until July 2021. It had a ban on non-essential foreign travel until the same time with the possibility of fines for breaching it, and those who did travel were required to self isolate for 14 days regardless of vaccination status - none of which applied in practice if you travelled via Belfast.

From July-November 2021, there may not have been any travel restrictions as such if you were vaccinated, but Ireland was consistently under stricter restrictions than any part of the UK, so few would have been travelling there for leisure unless to see family.

From November 2021 until a few days ago, private Covid testing was required for everyone regardless of vaccination status - which also didn't apply in practice if you travelled via Belfast.

nick468 · 18 Jan 2022

Aaand... as if by magic, the RailSail ticket appeared for Sunday night just now. With a small advance discount too, which is nice.

Delighted, and in no small way relieved... thanks for the info and help everyone. I suspect my asking TfW the right questions this morning might have shifted things along a bit!

danm14 · 18 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Aaand... as if by magic, the RailSail ticket appeared for Sunday night just now. With a small advance discount too, which is nice.

Delighted, and in no small way relieved... thanks for the info and help everyone. I suspect my asking TfW the right questions this morning might have shifted things along a bit!

If you're travelling with Stena Line, remember that if you wish to use the bus service from Dublin Port to the City Centre, you must now buy your ticket (£3) on board the ship at Guest Services - there are no on board ticket sales on the bus.

If you are planning to take a train to Limerick rather than a bus, be aware that the bus now terminates at Connolly Station and you must use the Luas at your own expense to get to Heuston.

And if you're going with Irish Ferries, there is no dedicated bus to meet sailings, just the public Dublin Bus 53 which is not a connecting service and will leave on time, empty, if there are any delays.

nick468 · 18 Jan 2022

Thanks for this extra information @danm14 - I didn't realise Mortons Coaches no longer operated.

First Dublin Bus not until 7am, but as you mentioned there is a Stena Line bus which leaves at 6.15am and heads for Connolly. I will call Stena Line to see if they will sell a ticket to me. To be honest, I'd rather be on Stena Line than Irish Ferries, but Sail/Rail beggars cannot be choosers!

I'll be getting the Dublin Coach onto Limerick, from Burgh Quay, so near enough to Connolly thank God.

Nick

TUC · 18 Jan 2022

danm14 said:
Neither Irish Ferries nor Stena Line will issue a ticket from Britain to Ireland in Ireland (unless it is the return leg of a return Ireland-Britain-Ireland journey).

They must be purchased via a rail ticket retailer in Britain.

That may well be the case. The question is why? Given I can be located in multiple parts of the world and buy a point to point air ticket between two other countries why would the rail industry want to be so limiting?

paul1609 · 18 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Thanks for this extra information @danm14 - I didn't realise Mortons Coaches no longer operated.

First Dublin Bus not until 7am, but as you mentioned there is a Stena Line bus which leaves at 6.15am and heads for Connolly. I will call Stena Line to see if they will sell a ticket to me. To be honest, I'd rather be on Stena Line than Irish Ferries, but Sail/Rail beggars
cannot be choosers!

I'll be getting the Dublin Coach onto Limerick, from Burgh Quay, so near enough to Connolly thank God.

Nick

I've not been to Dublin recently but the transport for Ireland website suggests that the Moreton Coaches service still runs as service 153 to Connoly and by request to Heuston from Outside the calor gas place in Tolka Quay just up the road from Stena and about 400 yards from Irish Ferries

danm14 · 18 Jan 2022

paul1609 said:
I've not been to Dublin recently but the transport for Ireland website suggests that the Moreton Coaches service still runs as service 153 to Connoly and by request to Heuston from Outside the calor gas place in Tolka Quay just up the road from Stena and about 400 yards from Irish Ferries

It doesn't. It was suspended temporarily in March 2020, and at some stage in mid-2021 was quietly discontinued permanently.

Do not trust Transport for Ireland for information on any bus service other than Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann. It is often hideously out of date.

Flying Snail · 18 Jan 2022

nick468 said:
Thanks for this extra information @danm14 - I didn't realise Mortons Coaches no longer operated.

First Dublin Bus not until 7am, but as you mentioned there is a Stena Line bus which leaves at 6.15am and heads for Connolly. I will call Stena Line to see if they will sell a ticket to me. To be honest, I'd rather be on Stena Line than Irish Ferries, but Sail/Rail beggars cannot be choosers!

I'll be getting the Dublin Coach onto Limerick, from Burgh Quay, so near enough to Connolly thank God.

Nick

Both Stena and Irish Ferries are available online; pick the operator you prefer.

To display the Stena tickets you need to put "Dublin Port Stena" (short code: DPS) into the planner "Dublin Ferryport" (DFP) only shows Irish Ferries sailings.

Stena won't sell you a ticket for their bus if you are not on their sailing, even if they did you aren't going to be able to get off the IF ship and across to the Stena terminal in time.

The only way you'll make the 06.45 Dublin Coach from the IF sailing would be by ordering a taxi from one of the taxi apps (freenow being the main one used by Dublin taxis)

Personally I'd go for Stena and the 07.00 Train, it would get you to Limerick earlier but I wouldn't use Dublin Coach under any circumstance, a truly terrible operator with an appalling record.

Deafdoggie · 19 Jan 2022

Flying Snail said:
And conversely I have been on sailings where extra buses have been needed to transfer all the foot passengers, no idea how many were rail-sail as I didn't conduct a poll.

I'm going to have to question your commitment to this forum! :lol:

island · 19 Jan 2022

TUC said:
That may well be the case. The question is why? Given I can be located in multiple parts of the world and buy a point to point air ticket between two other countries why would the rail industry want to be so limiting?

SailRail is an extremely niche product with minuscule demand, so any enhancements or system changes for it will be killed off before they start for not showing a positive return on investment.

It reminds me of the Eurostar domestic sales phone line and the elusive LNDON ESTAR CIV tickets which, it seems, were run by a chap in Ashford station and were nixed when he got pensioned off.

Rail & Sail ticket to Dublin via Holyhead

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