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Northern Line closure - through ticketing

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grove

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Normally a rail ticket that includes a cross London transfer e.g. London Bridge - Kings Cross allows the use of the Tube. Can the same tickets be used on bus services between those points e.g. 43/141/733 without additional charge?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Normally a rail ticket that includes a cross London transfer e.g. London Bridge - Kings Cross allows the use of the Tube. Can the same tickets be used on bus services between those points e.g. 43/141/733 without additional charge?
Not sure about local buses, but you should certainly be able to use an alternative LU route between London Bridge and Kings Cross whilst the Northern Line is closed (between Kennington and Moorgate until mid May 2022). Assume here that the rail ticket is a paper ticket and has a "Maltese Cross" symbol on it.

Alternatively, could you not do the cross London transfer on a Thameslink service?
 

Haywain

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Normally a rail ticket that includes a cross London transfer e.g. London Bridge - Kings Cross allows the use of the Tube. Can the same tickets be used on bus services between those points e.g. 43/141/733 without additional charge?
No. Cross-London rail tickets are not accepted on buses, and I believe a separate thread has established that there is no ticket acceptance in place on buses covering the Northern Line closure.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not sure about local buses, but you should certainly be able to use an alternative LU route between London Bridge and Kings Cross whilst the Northern Line is closed (between Kennington and Moorgate until mid May 2022). Assume here that the rail ticket is a paper ticket and has a "Maltese Cross" symbol on it.

Alternatively, could you not do the cross London transfer on a Thameslink service?

Indeed, outside of disruption, why would anyone ever choose to use the Tube for that specific transfer? Slower, less comfortable, less accessible...
 

Class800

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I cannot think of any such Maltese cross tickets where there would not be a valid alternative route via Thameslink or another LU line to avoid the closure - can anyone?
 

JonathanH

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I cannot think of any such Maltese cross tickets where there would not be a valid alternative route via Thameslink or another LU line to avoid the closure - can anyone?
No. If the OP is on a South Eastern Train it will go to either Charing Cross or Cannon Street for onward connections on the underground. If the OP is on a Thameslink service, connections are available at either Farringdon or Blackfriars. If the OP is coming into the terminal platforms they may well have the choice of Victoria or changing for Charing Cross, Cannon Street or Thameslink.

The Thameslink core is shut today but Charing Cross and Cannon Street are open, the latter admittedly with a limited service. Liverpool Street and Moorgate are less than 10-15 minutes walk from Cannon Street.
 

paul1609

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Indeed, outside of disruption, why would anyone ever choose to use the Tube for that specific transfer? Slower, less comfortable, less accessible...
It can be quicker, there's some gaps in the Thameslink timetable that mean you have to wait over 10 mins for a train. I think that the Northbound off peak timetable from London Bridge there's trains at xx 05 then xx16. As Thameslink isn't particularly quick through the core and there's no same platform interchange at London Bridge anymore. If you are on the concourse at say xx 08 you can save maybe 8 mins by using the Northern Line this can be the difference in getting or missing a train out of King's Cross.
 

AlbertBeale

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It can be quicker, there's some gaps in the Thameslink timetable that mean you have to wait over 10 mins for a train. I think that the Northbound off peak timetable from London Bridge there's trains at xx 05 then xx16. As Thameslink isn't particularly quick through the core and there's no same platform interchange at London Bridge anymore. If you are on the concourse at say xx 08 you can save maybe 8 mins by using the Northern Line this can be the difference in getting or missing a train out of King's Cross.

And at the other end, changing from the Northern Line to main line at Kings Cross can be speedier (providing you go the right way from the tube platform!) than changing from the low-level T/L St P platforms to Kings Cross mainline.
 

plugwash

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I cannot think of any such Maltese cross tickets where there would not be a valid alternative route via Thameslink or another LU line to avoid the closure - can anyone?
The only underground stations that is completely closed as a result of the works is Borough which is not a NR interchange. So all interchanges *can* still be made by the underground, it might just require a longer route.

Most of the Rail interchanges on the "stub" and Closed parts of the Northern line are served by a number of other lines.

Kings Cross St pancras has The Circle, Metropolatian Hammersmith & City, Piccadilly and Victoria lines and also has Thameslink.
Old Street doesn't have any other Underground lines, but afaict the trains that go there also call at Finsbury park (which offers the Piccadilly and Victoria lines and Thameslink) and Moorgate.
Moorgate has The Circle, Metropolatian Hammersmith & City and as with Old Street the trains that Call there also call at Finnsbury park,
London Bridge has the Jubilee line and Thameslink.
Elephant and Castle has the Bakerloo line and Thameslink.

The occasional Interchanges will require more changes than normal. For example Euston to London Bridge would normally be direct but will now require a change.

I don't think you will find a reasonable interchange between two "maltese cross" stations that requires more than one change on the Tube/Thameslink. Some interchanges from Old Street would, but as I mentioned above you can use moorgate or Finnsbury park instead.

Curiously Bank is listed as a Maltese cross interchange station despite not actually being a rail interchange. Maybe a legacy of when the Waterloo and City line was part of the Mainline railway?
 
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Mojo

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Indeed, outside of disruption, why would anyone ever choose to use the Tube for that specific transfer? Slower, less comfortable, less accessible...
The Northern line takes 10 Minutes between Kings Cross and London Bridge, whereas most Thameslink services are timetabled to take 14 or 15 Minutes from St Pancras to London Bridge.

Curiously Bank is listed as a Maltese cross interchange station despite not actually being a rail interchange. Maybe a legacy of when the Waterloo and City line was part of the Mainline railway?
This is because it is so close to Cannon Street, in a similar manner to why Baker Street is allowed for customers travelling to/from Marylebone, or Lancaster Gate for customers using Paddington.
 

plugwash

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Looking at Cannon Street/Bank on the map it looks like it could actually be relatively badly affected, but looking on realtime trains this is mitigated by the fact that it seems most if not all trains that call there also call at London Bridge.
 

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The Northern line takes 10 Minutes between Kings Cross and London Bridge, whereas most Thameslink services are timetabled to take 14 or 15 Minutes from St Pancras to London Bridge.

You'd lose 4 or 5 minutes walking through tunnels at both ends if using the Northern Line over Thameslink. Theoretically, by comparison, it is quicker to take the train from Liverpool Lime St to Liverpool Central than walk, but in practice walking is quicker because you spend a fair time walking through tunnels. And the Bank branch is just horrid and (normally) seriously overcrowded the whole time.

Apart from if the core was closed, I can't even contemplate choosing anything other than Thameslink for that journey.
 

JonathanH

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Apart from if the core was closed, I can't even contemplate choosing anything other than Thameslink for that journey.
Using the Victoria Line and a Southern service from Victoria usually beats Thameslink between Kings Cross and East Croydon.
 

Bletchleyite

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Using the Victoria Line and a Southern service from Victoria usually beats Thameslink between Kings Cross and East Croydon.

The Victoria Line is an odd case because it's basically an "express" Tube line. The Northern Line is grindingly slow with lots of stops. But I'll be honest, I'd still use Thameslink for that - why make things hard for yourself?
 

BluePenguin

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The Victoria Line is an odd case because it's basically an "express" Tube line. The Northern Line is grindingly slow with lots of stops. But I'll be honest, I'd still use Thameslink for that - why make things hard for yourself?
Same, in practice most of us value comfort and convenience over saving a few minutes. St Pancras to East Croydon on Thameslink is hardly slow anyway
 

TUC

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No. Cross-London rail tickets are not accepted on buses, and I believe a separate thread has established that there is no ticket acceptance in place on buses covering the Northern Line closure.
Given the integrated system TfL claims to be, that seems a strange ommission, and frankly an inconsiderate approach when it relates to a closure due to engineering work.
 

Bletchleyite

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Same, in practice most of us value comfort and convenience over saving a few minutes. St Pancras to East Croydon on Thameslink is hardly slow anyway

I suspect the main reason people often don't is that they don't realise their ticket is valid on it, people still see Travelcards as being Tube tickets. Many don't even realise they are valid on buses.

Given the integrated system TfL claims to be, that seems a strange ommission, and frankly an inconsiderate approach when it relates to a closure due to engineering work.

TfL is not an integrated system when it comes to bus fares and never has been. I agree it's madness.
 

Rob Gibson

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I suspect the main reason people often don't is that they don't realise their ticket is valid on it, people still see Travelcards as being Tube tickets. Many don't even realise they are valid on buses.



TfL is not an integrated system when it comes to bus fares and never has been. I agree it's madness.
Buses are always slow compared to tube and likely to be overwhelmed by tube passenger numbers leaving genuine bus passengers unable to board.
 

paul1609

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You'd lose 4 or 5 minutes walking through tunnels at both ends if using the Northern Line over Thameslink. Theoretically, by comparison, it is quicker to take the train from Liverpool Lime St to Liverpool Central than walk, but in practice walking is quicker because you spend a fair time walking through tunnels. And the Bank branch is just horrid and (normally) seriously overcrowded the whole time.

Apart from if the core was closed, I can't even contemplate choosing anything other than Thameslink for that journey.
No you don't. At King's Cross the Northern line to King's Cross Inter City gateline is shorter than Thameslink to the same.
 

Hadders

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I suspect the reason why cross London tickets aren't valid on buses is because it'd play havoc with the minimum interchange times to cross London.

Just imagine the potential for delay repay disputes :lol:
 

Haywain

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I suspect the reason why cross London tickets aren't valid on buses is because it'd play havoc with the minimum interchange times to cross London.

Just imagine the potential for delay repay disputes :lol:
Given how little TfL pay in compensation I doubt it would bother them much.
 

Hadders

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Given how little TfL pay in compensation I doubt it would bother them much.
True. But picture the scene at Euston or Paddington when a passenger turns up but has missed their booked train because they've been delayed on the bus.

It's be a potential exercise in how to turn an Advance into a flexible ticket...
 

Bletchleyite

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Buses are always slow compared to tube and likely to be overwhelmed by tube passenger numbers leaving genuine bus passengers unable to board.

You know TfL's bus fare pricing level is specifically to get people to use buses over the Tube, right? The idea being that it's cheaper to provide extra bus capacity than Tube capacity?
 

AlbertBeale

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No you don't. At King's Cross the Northern line to King's Cross Inter City gateline is shorter than Thameslink to the same.

Just the point I made above. If your mainline interchange is to/from StP, then maybe Thameslink; but London Bridge to/from KX makes much more sense via the Northern Line.
 

plugwash

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Have any alterations been made to the fixed link times to accommodate the closure? or are they just generous enough to absorb it?
 

Paul Kelly

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No you don't. At King's Cross the Northern line to King's Cross Inter City gateline is shorter than Thameslink to the same.
I was thinking the same. Maybe Bletchleyite uses a different route through King's Cross. But the Northern Line is really handy from the Underground entrance at the front of the station.
 

plugwash

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It won't work for every journey, but another option worth considering for passengers coming from the ECML who want to reduce their walking distance may be to change onto thameslink at Stevenage.
 

Mojo

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I will admit that I had the regional platforms in mind.
The Suburban platforms 9-11 are even closer than the Intercity gateline! The good thing about the Northern line at Kings + unlike other lines is that whichever ticket hall you use it is a short walk to the exit at both ends.
 
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