Period Return Availability for certain journeys including Sydenham to St Albans City.

MagisterLudi · 24 Jan 2022

Afternoon

Asking for someone else. Arrived at SYD on Friday at 18:39 and reported they were unable to buy an off-peak or open return for this journey: Sydenham (SYD) - St Albans City (SAC). When they questioned the staff member present, he refused to sell them a ticket, stating it was because his colleague was on a break and refused them entry through the barrier when they advised they would subsequently buy online. A screenshot of the attempted online purchase is attached and the option for a return is not present.

Any advice as to why it is not available and what to do (if anything) about the attitude of the staff member would be appreciated. Needless to say 2 singe tickets were purchased instead.

Thanks,
ML

RailUK Forums

gnolife · 24 Jan 2022

There is no off peak return or anytime return available for Sydenham to St Albans - the only tickets available are off peak day returns, anytime day returns, or season tickets. https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=SYD&dest=SAC

MagisterLudi · 24 Jan 2022

gnolife said:
There is no off peak return or anytime return available for Sydenham to St Albans - the only tickets available are off peak day returns, anytime day returns, or season tickets. https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=SYD&dest=SAC

Thanks for the clarification.

swt_passenger · 24 Jan 2022

As a general point, you won’t usually find period returns for any journey of less than about 35-40 miles. Out and back on different days will normally be an expensive option using separate singles.

JonathanH · 24 Jan 2022

Sydenham to St Albans as a period return will be cheaper on Contactless than buying two paper singles.

trebor79 · 24 Jan 2022

Yeah this kind of thing is annoying. I remember when I lived in Newark and was going to Nottingham for the weekend to meet up with friends, I had to buy 2 singles as the only return is/was a day return. Felt properly ripped off. Never understood why you can't buy a period return for some journeys. Is it an assumption that people will only ever usually want a day return, but then that doesn't expalin why some very long distance journey options offer day returns which would be wholly impractical.

MagisterLudi · 24 Jan 2022

JonathanH said:
Sydenham to St Albans as a period return will be cheaper on Contactless than buying two paper singles.

Should the member of staff at the station have advised that contactless was the cheapest method?

Starmill · 24 Jan 2022

trebor79 said:
Yeah this kind of thing is annoying. I remember when I lived in Newark and was going to Nottingham for the weekend to meet up with friends, I had to buy 2 singles as the only return is/was a day return. Felt properly ripped off. Never understood why you can't buy a period return for some journeys. Is it an assumption that people will only ever usually want a day return, but then that doesn't expalin why some very long distance journey options offer day returns which would be wholly impractical.

There are all sorts of wacky exceptions. No day return exists for Manchester to Huddersfield for only a half an hour journey (though it does for the slower journey via Hebden Bridge). But there's a choice of day and period returns for Scarborough to Seamer, which is all of five minutes.

swt_passenger · 24 Jan 2022

trebor79 said:
Yeah this kind of thing is annoying. I remember when I lived in Newark and was going to Nottingham for the weekend to meet up with friends, I had to buy 2 singles as the only return is/was a day return. Felt properly ripped off. Never understood why you can't buy a period return for some journeys. Is it an assumption that people will only ever usually want a day return, but then that doesn't expalin why some very long distance journey options offer day returns which would be wholly impractical.

It has always been explained as to stop people using period returns repeatedly in areas where they’re not likely to be checked onboard.

Haywain · 24 Jan 2022

trebor79 said:
that doesn't expalin why some very long distance journey options offer day returns which would be wholly impractical.

On the contrary, many people make long distance day trips with great regularity. I would suggest this is considerably higher than the numbers who make short distance overnight (and longer) return trips.

JonathanH · 24 Jan 2022

trebor79 said:
Never understood why you can't buy a period return for some journeys. Is it an assumption that people will only ever usually want a day return, but then that doesn't expalin why some very long distance journey options offer day returns which would be wholly impractical.

Two reasons:
1) to eliminate abuse because people might use a period return over multiple days
2) the off-peak day return is historically a discounted fare relative to the standard return fare and two singles isn't cheaper than the price the railway wants to charge for period returns over short distances.

MagisterLudi said:
Should the member of staff at the station have advised that contactless was the cheapest method?

They probably haven't been briefed to do so. Not really sure on whether they are obliged to do so.

trebor79 · 24 Jan 2022

swt_passenger said:
It has always been explained as to stop people using period returns repeatedly in areas where they’re not likely to be checked onboard.

JonathanH said:
Two reasons:
1) to eliminate abuse because people might use a period return over multiple days
2) the off-peak day return is historically a discounted fare relative to the standard return fare and two singles isn't cheaper than the price the railway wants to charge for period returns over short distances.

Well OK, but if tickets aren't being checked then presumably people who would use the same ticket again would just travel without a ticket at all? And only the return portion has travel date flexibility, so you'd still need to buy a single for the outward, and once the return portion *has* been clipped you'd have to buy a new ticket anyway. It sounds like once of those theoretical mitigations that actually doesn't achieve very much other than make a few unfortunates who have need for a period return to pay more.

JonathanH · 24 Jan 2022

trebor79 said:
And only the return portion has travel date flexibility, so you'd still need to buy a single for the outward, and once the return portion *has* been clipped you'd have to buy a new ticket anyway.

I understand the way it is perceived to be done is to have a period return for both directions and only buy a new one when the ticket has been checked.

Even where day and period returns co-exist the day return will be cheaper than the period return, sometimes substantially so. The railway recognises that the day return market needs a deeper discount to encourage discretionary travel.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2022

Haywain said:
On the contrary, many people make long distance day trips with great regularity. I would suggest this is considerably higher than the numbers who make short distance overnight (and longer) return trips.

Especially where "long distance" now actually includes examples such as Stockport to Sheffield, Birmingham to Derby, Reading to Swindon or Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester. I'm confident that every day, hundreds of people make day return journeys on these routes, using various period return ticket types because that's the cheapest ticket available. There will of course also be enormous numbers making day trips like Milton Keynes to London and Leeds to London, and a whole host of others, on similar tickets.

JonathanH said:
The railway recognises that the day return market needs a deeper discount to encourage discretionary travel

That may well have even been true once, but the extent to which it is today is very small. There are other reasons to offer the fares in this way of course, including revenue protection.

plugwash · 24 Jan 2022

Starmill said:
There are all sorts of wacky exceptions. No day return exists for Manchester to Huddersfield for only a half an hour journey (though it does for the slower journey via Hebden Bridge). But there's a choice of day and period returns for Scarborough to Seamer, which is all of five minutes.

I remember on Manchester to Leeds, TPE got rid of the any permitted off peak day return fare, effectively a stealth price rise. Then they later reinstated it. I wonder if the Manchester to Huddersfield one was removed at the same time and not reinstated.

JonathanH · 24 Jan 2022

Starmill said:
That may well have even been true once, but the extent to which it is today is very small.

Indeed, a move to single leg pricing could well see higher day return fares (as discussed many times) given period return fares may be reducing.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2022

plugwash said:
I remember on Manchester to Leeds, TPE got rid of the any permitted off peak day return fare, effectively a stealth price rise. Then they later reinstated it. I wonder if the Manchester to Huddersfield one was removed at the same time and not reinstated.

It was removed some time before that happened with Manchester - Leeds. Quite why they thought stakeholder feedback on Manchester - Leeds was relevant but not on Manchester - Sheffield I don't know. Even York to Dewsbury doesn't have a day return.

73128 · 6 Feb 2022

JonathanH said:
Two reasons:
1) to eliminate abuse because people might use a period return over multiple days
2) the off-peak day return is historically a discounted fare relative to the standard return fare and two singles isn't cheaper than the price the railway wants to charge for period returns over short distances.

They probably haven't been briefed to do so. Not really sure on whether they are obliged to do so.

at Radlett recently and there are (locally produced) posters by ticket office and ticket machines showing both paper and contactless fares for a variety of local and London journeys and needless to say most (but not all) are cheaper by the latter. Railcards and groups add to the fun!! They should be required to tell people if contactless is cheaper...

Class800 · 6 Feb 2022

MagisterLudi said:
Afternoon

Asking for someone else. Arrived at SYD on Friday at 18:39 and reported they were unable to buy an off-peak or open return for this journey: Sydenham (SYD) - St Albans City (SAC). When they questioned the staff member present, he refused to sell them a ticket, stating it was because his colleague was on a break and refused them entry through the barrier when they advised they would subsequently buy online. A screenshot of the attempted online purchase is attached and the option for a return is not present.

Any advice as to why it is not available and what to do (if anything) about the attitude of the staff member would be appreciated. Needless to say 2 singe tickets were purchased instead.

Thanks,
ML

Attitude = dreadful. Offering a day return when someone isn't returning same day shows not listening to the customer. Refusing the option to buy online is a dinosaur attitude. As to what fares are on offer, it's a separate issue to the attitude. An appropriate response might have been 'Sir, the fares system does not appear to display a period return. In the interim, the best I can offer you is [insert] - but you may wish to take this matter up with customer services'

trebor79 said:
once the return portion *has* been clipped you'd have to buy a new ticket anyway.

Not if break of journey is permitted (as usually is) and you are resuming after that break of journey (i.e. not repeating track)

plugwash · 6 Feb 2022

One thing to be aware of with oyster/contactless is that while often you get a single for half the price of a day return,, oyster has it's peak/off-peak rules. This can make whether paper tickets or contactless is the better deal very time dependent.

gnolife · 6 Feb 2022

Class800 said:
Refusing the option to buy online is a dinosaur attitude.

The post you quote seems to me to imply that they were trying to get through the barriers without a ticket, by saying that they will buy one online, which seems entirely reasonable from the barrier staff

robbeech · 6 Feb 2022

Many nonsense lack of period returns where a shorter journey on the same route does have them.

Edinburgh to Glasgow has both day returns and period returns, yet Edinburgh to Charing Cross Glasgow, further away only has day returns (incidentally at the same price as the Glasgow ticket).

Haywain · 7 Feb 2022

Class800 said:
An appropriate response might have been 'Sir, the fares system does not appear to display a period return.

'Does not appear to display' is not an appropriate response. If the staff member is aware that there is no period return (it's a black and white situation) they should be clear that there isn't and that the requested journey requires the purchase of two single fares.

Watershed · 7 Feb 2022

robbeech said:
Many nonsense lack of period returns where a shorter journey on the same route does have them.

Edinburgh to Glasgow has both day returns and period returns, yet Edinburgh to Charing Cross Glasgow, further away only has day returns (incidentally at the same price as the Glasgow ticket).

Edinburgh-Glasgow period returns were only introduced very recently and clearly they were priced on a point-to-point basis rather than for the entire flow.

There are plenty of journeys in Scotland (and elsewhere) where there are anomalies like this - for example many longer distances fares to/from EDB/GLC were cut 5 or 10 years ago, to avoid splits being cheaper. Unfortunately they ran out of funding before getting through the entire country, and hence it's often still the case that there is a massive saving by splitting at EDB/GLC.

For example, Stranraer-GLC is £23.70 for an Off-Peak Return - remarkably good value for such a long journey (albeit with only 4 trains per day). Yet if you buy a ticket to Argyle Street, 1 stop or 10 minutes' walk east from GLC, that shoots up to £49.90. It's just one of those things.

Starmill · 7 Feb 2022

Watershed said:
For example, Stranraer-GLC is £23.70 for an Off-Peak Return - remarkably good value for such a long journey (albeit with only 4 trains per day). Yet if you buy a ticket to Argyle Street, 1 stop or 10 minutes' walk east from GLC

It's especially egregious from Stranraer. For example a Stranraer to Glasgow single is £15.90, and the only through trains run via Kilmarnock. But a single from Stranraer to Kilmarnock is almost double the price at £28.60.

Period Return Availability for certain journeys including Sydenham to St Albans City.

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