Sheffield - Cardiff high fares

Justin Smith · 1 Jan 2011

I'm in shock.
The wife and I are going for a weekend in Cardiff in a couple of weeks. We'd planned to drive down, but I don't particularly like driving and it's quite a long way, so I thought I'd check out the price to go by train, pref First class, it's more roomy (...... ! ), and it's quieter [fewer loud personal stereos].
Using Cross Country Trains website the cheapest tickets, to go down Saturday and come back Monday, are £83 standard, or £187 First.
And that's each, on an inflexible "off peak" ticket !
Even standard class, which we're not that keen on, it'd be £166 for us both.
We could drive down significantly cheaper than that, and, door to door, it'd actually be faster.
Obviously we're going to drive.
But, apparently, even charging those exhorbitant fares, the railways lose loads of money.
Something is very wrong somewhere.......
Too much expensive Elf and Safety ?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What makes it even harder to swallow is that most people on those trains will probably have rail cards and not even paying these huge fares.
We've just checked up and there really is no rail card the wife and I can buy.
There's one for "young people", one for students, one for OAPs and, (the one that really annoys us) a "Family" Rail card.
Why does it annoy us so much ?
Well, unless I've read it wrong, up to 4 adults can travel at a discount, but, and here's the discriminatory catch, there has to be a child travelling with them.
How fair is that ?
As far as I understand it, the child doesn't even have to be related to any of the adults or, in fact, any of the party related to any of the others ! ? !
Which begs the question, exactly which definition of "family" are they using ? ! ?

And we both pay taxes that go into the railway subsidy.
Ever felt ripped off ?
We do.

RailUK Forums

ralphchadkirk · 1 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
I
Well, unless I've read it wrong, up to 4 adults can travel at a discount, but, and here's the discriminatory catch, there has to ba a child travelling with them.
How fair is that ?

For someone who hates health and safety and the nanny state so much, I'm surprised that you would call a family railcard discriminatory. It's not.
Or should everyone be allowed a over-60's bus pass - because otherwise you're discriminating against the under-60's?

Justin Smith · 1 Jan 2011

ralphchadkirk said:
For someone who hates health and safety and the nanny state so much, I'm surprised that you would call a family railcard discriminatory. It's not.
Or should everyone be allowed a over-60's bus pass - because otherwise you're discriminating against the under-60's?

Bus passes are a different ball game.
They're even worse.
They're definitely discriminatory.
They discriminate against the railways.
Apart from the anything else, most of the over 60s I know have more money than most of the under 60s.
I pay £3.50 to use the tram or bus, but, after 9.00 the over 60 next to me pays sweet FA.
How is that not discriminatory ?
Being a cynic, over 60s are more likely to vote, that's why they got the passes in the first place.
And even in this age of cuts, over 60s are more likely to vote Tory, so the bus passes won't be scrapped any time soon.....

jon0844 · 1 Jan 2011

If the Network Railcard was extended, or renamed a National Railcard, for say £50-75 per year that would pretty much solve the problem.

I am surprised there's nothing for outside the old NSE area and would pay more for such a card, given how quick it would pay for itself. Meanwhile, the industry has more money upfront and it encourages more off-peak travel where there is often excess capacity.

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

yorkie · 1 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
Using Cross Country Trains website the cheapest tickets, to go down Saturday and come back Monday, are £83 standard, or £187 First.
And that's each, on an inflexible "off peak" ticket !

£83.40 is the increased price (I agree it's expensive now, thanks to XC!) for a flexible, walk-on, ticket, that is valid on any train after 0500 on weekdays and any time on your outward journey on Saturday. Return is flexible, within 1 month. The only train you can't get is the 0423, I take it the lack of flexibility to get this train is irritating you? If so, you may wish to consider Advance fares, as on Monday 17 Jan the 0423 is only £16 single (and I also checked the next Monday too, the price was the same). If you want a flexible ticket valid on the 0423, a combination of tickets can be purchased.

As for First Class, you could pay for Weekend First on Saturday, and on Monday you can avoid busier times, perhaps changing at Bristol to get a spacious HST back, and then I am sure you will get seats.

Alternatively, specify via Leominster and you can get fares down to £16 each way, that's £64 return for two people; a huge saving.

If you don't like XC's fares, boycott them by going via the Hope Valley & Marches route, but exaggerations about flexible tickets being 'inflexible' etc, are not going to help your case.

Justin Smith said:
As far as I understand it, the child doesn't even have to be related to any of the adults or, in fact any of the party related to any of the others ! ? !
Which begs the question, exactly which definition of "family" are they using ? ! ?

They're not; it's family and friends.

wintonian · 1 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
Bus passes are a different ball game.
They're even worse.
They're definitely discriminatory.
They discriminate against the railways.
Apart from the anything else, most of the over 60s I know have more money than most of the under 60s.
I pay £3.50 to use the tram or bus, but, after 9.00 the over 60 next to me pays sweet FA.
How is that not discriminatory ?
Being a cynic, over 60s are more likely to vote, that's why they got the passes in the first place.
And even in this age of cuts, over 60s are more likely to vote Tory, so the bus passes won't be scrapped any time soon.....

It really does annoy me that millionaire pensioners, who will only use it to either take the grandchildren out for day or who drive to a park and ride site and take the bus into the city centre free when not all disabled people can get one, some of whom live of state benefits.

There really ought to be some kind of means testing.

Failed Unit · 1 Jan 2011

Try going via London. That is what I do now much cheaper and you have nicer trains. Just split at London itself.

tbtc · 1 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
Bus passes are a different ball game.
They're even worse.
They're definitely discriminatory.
They discriminate against the railways

Priceless.

Bus passes are discriminatory because they don't allow you on trains.

Anyone would think the clue was in the name...

I bet Justin was shocked when his Tesco clubcard didn't allow him cheaper food at ASDA...

Yet again you've taken what might have been a good an interesting point and made it look foolish

wintonian · 1 Jan 2011

There do seem to be £16 and £22 advance fares for Sat 15th and Mon 17th admittedly either very early or getting you back quite late, otherwise there are lots of £34.50/ £35.00 fares still available all standard class though.

If you are planning to go on different dates lets us know when and we can have a look for you.

yorkie · 1 Jan 2011

I wish Justin would tone it down a bit, there are some big exaggerations to what would be valid points.

As for bus passes being discriminatory against railways, he does have a point. Heart of Wales, anyone? That line exists because of the terrain, it links towns and villages that can't easily be linked by road. The line needs all the income it can get, and the service is not too dissimilar to a rural bus service in some ways. So why shouldn't the line get funding to convey OAP pass holders? Well, after a successful campaign that is exactly what happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

wintonian said:
There do seem to be £16 and £22 advance fares for Sat 15th and Mon 17th admittedly either very early or getting you back quite late, otherwise there are lots of £34.50/ £35.00 fares still available all standard class though.

XC is expensive, so to get the £16 fares (without travelling really early/late) specify via somewhere on the alternative route via the Hope Valley / Marches, e.g. via Leominster. See my screenshot above, there should be £16 fares at suitable times for the OP.

The OP is unhappy at XC's prices. The answer is simple: don't use them, and save £100!

ralphchadkirk · 1 Jan 2011

yorkie said:
As for bus passes being discriminatory against railways, he does have a point. Heart of Wales, anyone? That line exists because of the terrain, it links towns and villages that can't easily be linked by road. The line needs all the income it can get, and the service is not too dissimilar to a rural bus service in some ways. So why shouldn't the line get funding to convey OAP pass holders? Well, after a successful campaign that is exactly what happened.

I can see a point in a situation like that, but it would require regulation to ensure that someone wasn't going to travel from Thurso to Penzance free!

atomicdanny · 1 Jan 2011

tbtc said:
Priceless.

Bus passes are discriminatory because they don't allow you on trains.

I believe that the London Version of the over 60 passes allow them to use the tube / buses / trams / dlr? but only buses outside of London. Same with manchester although just trams / buses I believe. (although anyone from outside of those cities can only use the buses after 9:30am)

wintonian · 1 Jan 2011

atomicdanny said:
I believe that the London Version of the over 60 passes allow them to use the tube / buses / trams / dlr? but only buses outside of London. Same with manchester although just trams / buses I believe. (although anyone from outside of those cities can only use the buses after 9:30am)

The national scheme allows free bus travel in England at or after 09:30 - 23:00 and all day at weekends/ bank holidays.

London has had its own scheme for a while now alowing use of the tube, buses and DLR - this is called a Fredom Pass.

All travel concessionary authorities (PTE's, district and unity authoritys, though the responsibility from April will move from district councils to the shires) can offer local enhancements for their own residents.

These enhancements mostly consist of allowing travel from 09:00 or all day but some allow travel on local ferrys or trains (Derbyshire cards allow use on the Hope Valley Line for example) or even extending the eligibility criteria and residents of the Scilly isle can use the helicopter service though this may just be a significant discount.

It is also a devolved matter with Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland having their own schemes.

more info

Justin Smith · 2 Jan 2011

This "who should pay for the railways" (passengers or taxpayers) is an interesting one.
According to the news, fares are about to go up by way over inflation, and season ticket holders will be hit the hardest.
But, the vast majority of season ticket holders are taxpayers !
What's more I'll bet that (apart from the joke "family" railcard) the great majority of them aren't entitled to any railcard either.
They probably feel they're being ripped off.
I think they're right.

jon0844 · 2 Jan 2011

It does seem unfair that only annual season ticket holders in the (Network) South East (area) get the discounts for themselves and family, with no - at the moment - minimum spend. In fact, it's actually quite sad that those people buying monthly tickets can't get some, or all, of the benefits as trying to get £3,500 up front is not easy. Do you get a loan, ask your employer (many won't give loans) or throw it on a credit card and pay interest? TOCs will let you pay a monthly DD but this still only gets you 12 monthly tickets, not the annual ticket (where you get two months free).

I'm not saying people are being ripped off, but as the prices go up, couldn't ATOC (or the Government) consider some options to offset the 'hardship'?

FCC, for example, give out two lousy scratchcards for unlimited travel on their network - which I only received two weeks before Christmas on an annual ticket that expired at the end of the year!! Wagn used to give four First Class passes, covering you and a partner for a whole day. Now FCC could give you more passes, some FC upgrade vouchers, weekend travel for free on the whole network or other things (maybe vouchers for use on other First Group TOCs?) - without any major impact on its network (by all means have black out days for known times where capacity IS an issue, such as when Arsenal is playing at home, bank holidays etc). If FCC, and others, were clever - they could attribute a theoretical value to these benefits.

MikeWh · 2 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
apart from the joke "family" railcard

Why do you have it in for the family and friends railcard? It has been called family and friends for many years now. As a father of three kids I can tell you that it quite simply makes travel affordable. It is far from a 'joke'. They added friends into the title to make the card more obviously acceptable for things like:

taking friend(s) of your child to a football match
two families going together
nanny/childminder taking kids out in holidays

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think it is a joke.

Old Timer · 2 Jan 2011

Justin Smith said:
I'm in shock.

Using Cross Country Trains website the cheapest tickets, to go down Saturday and come back Monday, are £83 standard, or £187 First.
And that's each, on an inflexible "off peak" ticket !

Even standard class, which we're not that keen on, it'd be £166 for us both.

Ever felt ripped off ?
We do.

National Express Coaches charge the following for the same journey

Standard Advanced Return £49 per person

Standard Return £56 per person

Mind you it takes all day to get there.

Sheffield to Cardiff is 206 miles (Source : Google maps)

AA rate per mile for an average car doing 20,000 a year is 43.36p per mile. Driving therefore will cost £89 each way taking all costs into account.

jon0844 · 2 Jan 2011

The only problem with the Family (and Friends) Railcard is that you need at least one child with you. Drop that and you've now actually got a railcard that can be used by those who don't quality for the other types.

However, it is what it is. I don't see any pressure groups trying to change any of this.

TheWalrus · 2 Jan 2011

If you payed less subsidy in taxes you would be paying more for fares.

43034 The Black Horse · 2 Jan 2011

If you bought the card before 30/04/2010, I can offer my services (ooo err).

Failed Unit · 3 Jan 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
The only problem with the Family (and Friends) Railcard is that you need at least one child with you. Drop that and you've now actually got a railcard that can be used by those who don't quality for the other types.

However, it is what it is. I don't see any pressure groups trying to change any of this.

Actually many pressure groups are campaigning for a national railcard similar to the network railcard. In fact the proposal is basically the network railcard but valid UK wide.

However all people will need the card, just like all YP users need the card to get a discount and some people won't make enough journeys to cover the cost.

The friends and family is fine as it is. I often get gaurds joking that I am using a 2 year old to get cheap travel but it is nice that a child saves money somewhere.

38Cto15E · 3 Jan 2011

Justin
Have you tried EMT advance fares via St Pancras and FGW via Paddington?

paul1609 · 3 Jan 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
It does seem unfair that only annual season ticket holders in the (Network) South East (area) get the discounts for themselves and family, with no - at the moment - minimum spend. In fact, it's actually quite sad that those people buying monthly tickets can't get some, or all, of the benefits as trying to get £3,500 up front is not easy. Do you get a loan, ask your employer (many won't give loans) or throw it on a credit card and pay interest? TOCs will let you pay a monthly DD but this still only gets you 12 monthly tickets, not the annual ticket (where you get two months free).

I'm not saying people are being ripped off, but as the prices go up, couldn't ATOC (or the Government) consider some options to offset the 'hardship'?

Personally I'm of the opinion that season ticket holders are being unfairly subsidised by daily tickets. I know flows vary but on my daily journey a monthly season ticket represents a 30 % discount on 20 daily anytime returns. In my opinion thats a prettty impressive concession for whats in effect paying the TOC a month early. I'm fairly strongly of the opinions that theres still ample scope for season tickets to rise by around another 25 % before the rail companies should be looking to offer more incentives.

Im afraid if people choose to commute long distances I think they should pay the costs of their lifestyle not expect a subsidy from the taxpayer.

Old Timer · 3 Jan 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
..... trying to get £3,500 up front is not easy. Do you get a loan, ask your employer (many won't give loans) or throw it on a credit card and pay interest? TOCs will let you pay a monthly DD but this still only gets you 12 monthly tickets, not the annual ticket (where you get two months free)..

I fail to see the difference against travelling long distance by car ?

No-one forces people to travel considerable distances to work do they ?

If you take a job knowing that it will require a need to buy a season ticket that is something you have to factor in to the overall package or the decision to take the job.

Many long distance commuters elected to sell out at a quick profit and move out long distance through choice, so that they could "live the dream". Well that was a risk they took. You cannot have your cake and eat it with long distance commuting as was found out in the Recession in the 1980s, when there was a collapse in the housing market in popular long distance commuting towns, as people could neither afford to travel to work and pay the mortgage. Some people however do not learn for their past mistakes, some are unable to learn from history, and some are unable to comprehend the fact that the economic life of a Country is a rollercoaster.

With regards to buying an annual at the outset, there are many, many credit card deals whereby you can get up to 18 months interest free credit, which would allow a person to buy a ticket this way and pay back free.

radamfi · 3 Jan 2011

jonmorris0844 said:
It does seem unfair that only annual season ticket holders in the (Network) South East (area) get the discounts for themselves and family, with no - at the moment - minimum spend.

Although it could be argued that the fares in the SE are so much higher than the rest of the country that the discount only brings down fares to around the same level as outside the SE.

What is the ethical thing to do regarding high fares? The whole point of trains is to cut down on congestion so are you doing a bad thing by driving when there is a rail alternative? But if you pay the high fare then you are basically letting the industry and government get away with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Old Timer said:
You cannot have your cake and eat it with long distance commuting as was found out in the Recession in the 1980s, when there was a collapse in the housing market in popular long distance commuting towns, as people could neither afford to travel to work and pay the mortgage.

I have debated this with people who argue that it it better to live in London than commute. I would argue that it is safer to commute as if you lose your job then you no longer have to pay for the season ticket. If you stay in London you would still have to pay the massive mortgage.

yorkie · 3 Jan 2011

radamfi said:
What is the ethical thing to do regarding high fares?

I get lifts to Garforth if I am going somewhere in Yorkshire for an evening, e.g. our monthly Yorkshire pub/meal forum meets. The price reduces to around 1/3 of the cost (e.g. Yrk to Hud £16.20 vs Grf to Hud £5.60) the train will be busier from Grf and even busier from Lds, yet the price is lower for the busier sections. So I am saving a lot of money by not being on the train when it is lightly loaded. It's their loss, not mine.

If a lift was unavailable I'd either split the ticket (if this was cheaper) or make use of the routeing guide and finish "short" e.g. Shireoaks for Sheffield, Halifax for Huddersfield, and so on. Never let them win by paying an unfair fare, on principle.

paul1609 · 3 Jan 2011

yorkie said:
I get lifts to Garforth if I am going somewhere in Yorkshire for an evening, e.g. our monthly Yorkshire pub/meal forum meets. The price reduces to around 1/3 of the cost (e.g. Yrk to Hud £16.20 vs Grf to Hud £5.60) the train will be busier from Grf and even busier from Lds, yet the price is lower for the busier sections. So I am saving a lot of money by not being on the train when it is lightly loaded. It's their loss, not mine.

If a lift was unavailable I'd either split the ticket (if this was cheaper) or make use of the routeing guide and finish "short" e.g. Shireoaks for Sheffield, Halifax for Huddersfield, and so on. Never let them win by paying an unfair fare, on principle.

Surely the real question is why fares within some PTEs are so low when they are subsidised centrally by the Dft. It is patently unfair that someone working on a minimum wage in Sussex has to pay 3 times the fare of some fat cat in Leeds.

Drsatan · 3 Jan 2011

Failed Unit said:
Actually many pressure groups are campaigning for a national railcard similar to the network railcard. In fact the proposal is basically the network railcard but valid UK wide.

In a 'pie in the sky' world, Britain should introduce an equivalent to the 'half-fare' discount card in Switzerland. It's available to anyone (even foreign nationals) and gives the passenger 50% of all railway fares and a discount on most buses and trams. Such a card, if introduced in Britain, would encourage people who wouldn't normally use buses to use them to get to the nearest station.

radamfi · 3 Jan 2011

Many European countries have similar railcards e.g.

DB has 25% and 50% off cards.
NS has a 40% off card for off peak use.

Just noticed that Belgian Railways have scrapped their 50% off card. However, with their Rail Pass you get 10 single journeys of any distance for 74 euros per year. Yes, you read that right - 7.40 euros per trip!

jon0844 · 4 Jan 2011

Old Timer said:
I fail to see the difference against travelling long distance by car ?

No-one forces people to travel considerable distances to work do they ?

In my case, we moved out of London (but not that far) to get a bigger house as the one bed flat was making me and the wife go mad. She worked nearby and drove, and I worked from home with the occasional need to go into London.

Then, I got offered a job and started to get a season ticket. Now, I could not have known how much season tickets would go up, and way beyond my pay (and subsequent increases) so if they continue to rise by £400 a year, very soon I will have to consider leaving the job. In my work, there's nothing else locally - so I either seek to work freelance (and at the current time, that's near suicide) or seek another type of job.

The alternative might be to keep the job and move back to town, but to what? Selling this three bed house would get us back into a flat! As radamfi says, you're probably better off outside of London - unless you can afford to be in central London. Living in Enfield, as I did, would have made travel much cheaper, but the journey to work would take ages by public transport. TWO buses and a slow tube to Finsbury Park or King's Cross then a change to FCC or the Northern Line. I'd be lucky to get to work in under two hours, instead of as little as 30 minutes (45 if I include the bus from the front door to the station).

Old Timer said:
With regards to buying an annual at the outset, there are many, many credit card deals whereby you can get up to 18 months interest free credit, which would allow a person to buy a ticket this way and pay back free.

I actually put money aside so that I can buy outright, but not everyone can do that - and not everyone is necessarily able to get a credit card or loan, let alone one with favourable offers (and offers that can be repeated every year come renewal time).

I'm not yet at the point where I feel I'm priced out of the market, but now the wife can cycle or take a bus to work, I could drive and save money - as the office is outside the congestion zone and is on the A1, which goes directly to my house. However, I've done this briefly and it's not enjoyable and the traffic can be hell - but some people MUST be making this consideration now, or if not now, they certainly will in a year or two when the real price rises kick in.

Sheffield - Cardiff high fares

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