Suggestions on upcoming modern fleet withdrawn

Class 175, EMR 180, 185, AWC 221, 222, Remaining 9 323 (so far isnt moving to Northern), Remaining 365, 350/2 and 379 so far are on borrowed time, If you had your way, where would you like to place these upcoming cascade modern stocks?

Heres some suggestions I came up with for them.

175 - Move them to Northern running solely on Manchester - Barrow/Windermere like before releasing the CAF's to improve capacity elsewhere or directly replace 27 older stocks

180 - Move them to GC to improve capacity (possibly convert them into bi-mode by replace one of the engine (If that can be done to the 319 then im sure its possible the same could be done to the 180)

185 a.k.a The heavy sumo wrestler - If 22 do actually get released by TPE then perhaps keep them in warm storage until the East West rail is open and use them on that.

AWC 221 - Move them to XC which is likely gonna happen anyways

222 - Reform some of them back to 9 car and move them on XC longest distance route (Plymouth - Edinbirgh), The rest, No idea, maybe GWR Cardiff - Penzance along with the Castle sets, I don't know.

323 - Send the remaining 9 to Northern or scrap

365 - Convert them to parcel train to replace 325 or other use

350/2 - If the Chiltern Mainline were electrified then I would have moved all of them to there or Move about half of the amount of them to XC on electrified service (Manchster - Birmingham) while the other half for Freight/Parcel/Open Access company

379 - Move them to Great Northern allowing 387 to move to Southern to join the rest of them, maybe in turn to replace the older 377 convert them into a more metro style (similar way to what C2C did to their 357/2) and replace a number of 313/455.


Whats your suggestions for these sets?

Prestige15 said:

365 - Convert them to parcel train to replace 325 or other use

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Unfortunately that would be quite difficult, considering that most have now been scrapped.

One for the Speculation section of the forum I feel.

Also, I hate to say it but good luck with the 365s, unless you want to convert coke cans into EMUs again

I guess this thread should probably be in the speculative section.

Mind you, I think you'd have better luck reviving the 365s from metal fragments than converting 180s into bi-mode. They are (notoriously unreliable!) diesel-hydraulic MUs - converting them wouldn't be as simple as attaching a pantograph.

Oh gawd, not only keep the 180s but convert them to bi-mode?
That could only be written by someone who is not involved in the day to day operation of the railway. They are probably the most unreliable diesel unit out there. The sooner they are gone, the better.

Fuzzytop said:

I guess this thread should probably be in the speculative section.

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It now appears that your wish has been granted.

Prestige15 said:

180 - Move them to GC to improve capacity (possibly convert them into bi-mode by replace one of the engine (If that can be done to the 319 then im sure its possible the same could be done to the 180)

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Do GC want them? And it is the exact opposite of what happened to 319s! They had panto wells and traction motors already. It would cost millions to make 180s hybrid. Added to that, none are currently spare...

Prestige15 said:

185 a.k.a The heavy sumo wrestler - If 22 do actually get released by TPE then perhaps keep them in warm storage until the East West rail is open and use them on that.

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EWR already have units planned.

Prestige15 said:

365 - Convert them to parcel train to replace 325 or other use

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Not sure two 365s would be much use to anyone.

Prestige15 said:

350/2 - If the Chiltern Mainline were electrified...

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It isn't.

Prestige15 said:

(If that can be done to the 319 then im sure its possible the same could be done to the 180)

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Adding a diesel generator to an electric unit is completely different to adding an electric pickup to a diesel engine.

Prestige15 said:

222 - Reform some of them back to 9 car and move them on XC longest distance route (Plymouth - Edinbirgh), The rest, No idea, maybe GWR Cardiff - Penzance along with the Castle sets, I don't know.

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Why do the remainder have to be kept once reformed?

Prestige15 said:

350/2 - If the Chiltern Mainline were electrified then I would have moved all of them to there or Move about half of the amount of them to XC on electrified service (Manchster - Birmingham) while the other half for Freight/Parcel/Open Access company

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Manchester to Birmingham as a standalone service has been done to death, it isn't going to happen any time soon. The 350s don't have anything obvious that would make them first choice for parcels. Better option surely is either to send them to LNWR to bolster the existing 350s or convert them to 450s for SWR.

Prestige15 said:

379 - Move them to Great Northern allowing 387 to move to Southern to join the rest of them, maybe in turn to replace the older 377 convert them into a more metro style (similar way to what C2C did to their 357/2) and replace a number of 313/455.

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Southern don't want to get rid of their 313s, and Plug doors aren't a good option for Metro routes (especially the Southern ones) so you'd need to do quite major work to fit sliding pocket-style doors to replace 455s.

zwk500 said:

Manchester to Birmingham as a standalone service has been done to death, it isn't going to happen any time soon. The 350s don't have anything obvious that would make them first choice for parcels. Better option surely is either to send them to LNWR to bolster the existing 350s or convert them to 450s for SWR.

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The 730s don't look like they'll soon be in service so it could be a while till the 350/2s are free.

Energy said:

The 730s don't look like they'll soon be in service so it could be a while till the 350/2s are free.

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To be fair, I hadn't kept up and thought the 350/2s were still with TPE. Interestingly the wikipedia page suggests Porterbrook were looking at converting spare 350s to battery units when the new stock replaces it but I've got no idea whether they still want to do that.

zwk500 said:

To be fair, I hadn't kept up and thought the 350/2s were still with TPE. Interestingly the wikipedia page suggests Porterbrook were looking at converting spare 350s to battery units when the new stock replaces it but I've got no idea whether they still want to do that.

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350/2s have always been in service with LNWR (and its predecessor London Midland), it was the 350/4s which came from TPE and are staying at LNWR.

350/2 battery units might be interesting, depends on how long their range would be.

skyhigh said:

Do GC want them? .

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I doubt it very much. There’s no central organisation that’s concerned about providing stock for GC anyway. As an open access operator I don’t think anyone is going to be allocating extra routes to them.

So although ‘sending them to GC’ is hardly an original suggestion, there’s really no one to do the sending…

Prestige15 said:

Class 175, EMR 180, 185, AWC 221, 222, Remaining 9 323 (so far isnt moving to Northern), Remaining 365, 350/2 and 379 so far are on borrowed time, If you had your way, where would you like to place these upcoming cascade modern stocks?

Heres some suggestions I came up with for them.

175 - Move them to Northern running solely on Manchester - Barrow/Windermere like before releasing the CAF's to improve capacity elsewhere or directly replace 27 older stocks

180 - Move them to GC to improve capacity (possibly convert them into bi-mode by replace one of the engine (If that can be done to the 319 then im sure its possible the same could be done to the 180)

185 a.k.a The heavy sumo wrestler - If 22 do actually get released by TPE then perhaps keep them in warm storage until the East West rail is open and use them on that.

AWC 221 - Move them to XC which is likely gonna happen anyways

222 - Reform some of them back to 9 car and move them on XC longest distance route (Plymouth - Edinbirgh), The rest, No idea, maybe GWR Cardiff - Penzance along with the Castle sets, I don't know.

323 - Send the remaining 9 to Northern or scrap

365 - Convert them to parcel train to replace 325 or other use

350/2 - If the Chiltern Mainline were electrified then I would have moved all of them to there or Move about half of the amount of them to XC on electrified service (Manchster - Birmingham) while the other half for Freight/Parcel/Open Access company

379 - Move them to Great Northern allowing 387 to move to Southern to join the rest of them, maybe in turn to replace the older 377 convert them into a more metro style (similar way to what C2C did to their 357/2) and replace a number of 313/455.


Whats your suggestions for these sets?

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Keep the 222s well away from Plymouth please, they are totally unsuited to the very long journeys involved, and the seating is far more uncomfortable than that on a voyager. Awful awful trains. Just about cut it for short MML services, but Plymouth to Birmingham is 3 and a half hours, far too long in that awful 222 seating. More 221s please, or even better IETs.

175s back to the north west.
180s all running for Grand Central.
XC can have AWC's 221s back. They can also take on 222s, it means HSTs can be withdrawn and 170s move to East Midlands Railway.
323s can all be concentrated on Northern.
379s to Great Northern.

gc4946 said:

323s can all be concentrated on Northern.

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gc4946 said:

180s all running for Grand Central.

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Why, when they don't want or need them?

Something of a rarity on this sub-forum - no-one has yet suggested moving any of the diesel units to replace 159s on the Waterloo - Exeter route as a way of significantly increasing staffing and maintenance costs whilst also significantly reducing capacity and flexibility. Nice to see.

221s and 222s don't really have any obvious home besides XC. However the DfT will no doubt decide how many (if any) of them are passed to XC.

skyhigh said:

Why, when they don't want or need them?

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The EMR 180s could be used for spares to keep the Grand Central units running.
If the Cheshire Lines Committee route via Warrington Central is electrified, then the 323s would be handy

My biggest struggle is finding a home for TPE's surplus 185s.
I'd rule them out for South Western Railway's use, but could they be used on Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich services?

There's a lot to take in with this thread, it's like someone's taken about 10 different sub-forums and thrown them all together!

Prestige15 said:

175 - Move them to Northern running solely on Manchester - Barrow/Windermere like before releasing the CAF's to improve capacity elsewhere or directly replace 27 older stocks

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The 175s are much older than the 195s so will be seen negatively by a lot of people, and Northern wouldn't benefit from yet another train type in its already expansive fleet

180 - Move them to GC to improve capacity (possibly convert them into bi-mode by replace one of the engine (If that can be done to the 319 then im sure its possible the same could be done to the 180)

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It's mentioned in this thread already but it would cost way too much to convert the 180s to bi mode. I've heard that Grand Central are struggling with corrosion issues (the reason EMRs 180109 is now a 4 car), I don't see them lasting more than 10 years myself

185 a.k.a The heavy sumo wrestler - If 22 do actually get released by TPE then perhaps keep them in warm storage until the East West rail is open and use them on that.

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East West Rail is already going to get 196s subleased from the West Midlands. IF anything, I hope TPE hold on to the 185s for as long as possible!

222 - Reform some of them back to 9 car and move them on XC longest distance route (Plymouth - Edinbirgh), The rest, No idea, maybe GWR Cardiff - Penzance along with the Castle sets, I don't know.

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Creating more 9 cars also means that there will be more 4 cars, which are/were awful for capacity, not to mention the plans EMR have to reform most of the fleet to 5 cars (only 4 sets will be 7). It would cost too much for GWR to run Meridians however I think Crosscountry could benefit from some Meridians to replace HSTs, until more of their route is electrified

365 - Convert them to parcel train to replace 325 or other use

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Most of the 365s have been scrapped now and it isn't worth the time and money converting them to replace trains that are of similar age. However, if they hadn't have been scrapped, I think they would have been good for parcel use elsewhere. When the time comes to replace the 325s, I'd suggest something brand new or something new-ish and redundant (360/2s are being converted to parcel use I believe, which is a good example of what I mean)

350/2 - If the Chiltern Mainline were electrified then I would have moved all of them to there or Move about half of the amount of them to XC on electrified service (Manchster - Birmingham) while the other half for Freight/Parcel/Open Access company

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The Chilterns won't be electrified anytime soon, as much as it needs it imo. Although if it did I'd suggest brand new bi mode stock to replace all of the Turbos and Clubmans, as unlikely as that sounds. As for the 350/2s, it's difficult to decide where they should go, but I think, as mentioned above, they should join other Dessies in SWR.

379 - Move them to Great Northern allowing 387 to move to Southern to join the rest of them, maybe in turn to replace the older 377 convert them into a more metro style (similar way to what C2C did to their 357/2) and replace a number of 313/455.

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The MML would benefit with EMUs with corridor connections and 2+2 seating, and if the 379s were available much sooner they'd have been great to use instead of the 360s. Unfortunately there isn't a case to replace a fleet that they only acquired a couple of years ago. I believe the 360s are also cheaper in terms of operating costs

gc4946 said:

My biggest struggle is finding a home for TPE's surplus 185s.

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At least it isn't a struggle that most of us have to worry about. Only the leasing company (and its investors) really has any concern.

IIRC LM/WMR has 30 * 350/1 which are dual electric with 2+2 seating and 27 * 350/2 which will become spare but which are AC only and 2+3. I've been thinking speculatively of a swap - so the AC 350/2 stays with LM (refitted with 2+2) and the DC enabled 350/1 joining SWR (pushing out the 458s?!).

But (with different colour crayons) the ideas came of shipping the redundant sub-class 350/2s to EMR where their corridor connections would stymie the guards dispute, or even to Scotland with a TSO removed to work with 380s. The 27 * (20m) TSOs then go into the 22 spare (23m) 185s to make less overpowered 4 car sets...

All nonsense of course!

patrick.hearn3 said:

All nonsense of course!

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Yes. There are 37 350/2s for a start.

JonathanH said:

Yes. There are 37 350/2s for a start.

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Ah. Memory fail. Apologies

Grecian 1998 said:

Something of a rarity on this sub-forum - no-one has yet suggested moving any of the diesel units to replace 159s on the Waterloo - Exeter route as a way of significantly increasing staffing and maintenance costs whilst also significantly reducing capacity and flexibility. Nice to see.

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Thankfully! The 159s are perfect for the route, unless a bi-mode 444 could be conjured out of somewhere. I could see the 350s converted to bi-mode being suggested, although I'm not sure about a hypothetical range on diesel. The suggested battery/electric 'flex' option definitely wouldn't work with that distance.

The 350/2s though could well make sense moving to SWR, numbering almost exactly the same as the number of 458s. But I don't think spending all that money on re-building the 458s again only to replace them with 350s would go down too well....