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Secrets Of The London Underground.

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172007

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I think the answer to your question is that the programme is designed for a general audience. The questions you raise whilst I find them interesting would put 95% of viewers off. It's a commercial TV station not a YouTube programme.

Now if Tim and Siddy could have their own camera with them and take it in turns to do some super geeky videos by themselves or the inevitable geeky parts that are cut and put on Youtube then these points could be addressed bit again would it be financially viable.
 
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paulkidger

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I would agree with the reply regarding it being a 'General Interest' programme and it must be a balance between the general and the enthusiast audiences. I would maintain that by watching the programme, there has to be a certain degree of enthusiast, or at least historical interest. Back to my points, I think they were reasonably 'general' in nature. For example, the point was made that the LSWR built the line to tap into the 'City' trade which gave the line its SR heritage, so a quick pan to the carriage ventilators would have reinforced that. It would also have highlighted the 'Art Deco' type styling of the 1940 stock. Let's face it the stock was quite something when it arrived on the scene. Did Oliver Bulleid have a say in the matter? Likewise showing the scissors crossover at Bank would have made an easily explained comparison with the 'Head-shunt' featured at the Waterloo end.
 

kwrail

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The series is getting better and settling down. Early episodes started with Tim Dunn playing the dumb presenter, and Siddy Holloway playing the expert answering questions. Which was daft as Tim Dunn is an excellent presenter who knows his stuff. Was a bit Janet and John. It seems to be morphing into two enthusiasts having fun going to places they wouldn't normally get to see. Which actually makes for better TV, which keeps both the geeks and general audience interested.

Last nights section on the Waterloo and City line was excellent.
 

bramling

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The Secrets of the London Underground is a brilliant series, opening the doors on many places the general public can never see. Last night's programme (12/05/22) dealt with the Waterloo & City. A good shot of the stub which once lead to the Armstrong lift. However a number of points I thought were missing. The 1940's stock had Southern Railway or Southern Region cut into the carriage 'over-door' ventilation grilles. Pity this was missed. Then at Bank station, on the 'walk through' it would have been interesting to show the Scissors crossing on the station approach as an alternative to the previously described reversing shunt at Waterloo.
Now for a question. In the programme they stated that the supply current is 750V DC being the SR standard and not the LU 630V (give or take a few). This surprised me. I thought that when the line was refurbished in the 1990's, a standard 4 rail LU system at 630V was installed. Does anyone know how the W&C 4 rail system is arranged? Does it follow LU practice of a totally isolated supply and splitting the voltage to perhaps give -250 V centre rail and + 500 V side rail. Or does it have a centre rail bonded to earth to give 0V and + 750V side rail.

In terms of supply, it was historically fed from the same substation as feeds the main lines out of Waterloo. Indeed the London end of the south western network has always been fed at 660V due to the presence of LU. Once clear of Wimbledon and Richmond I believe there is a gradual increase.

However things have changed more recently, as I believe the W&C now has its own dedicated traction substation located in the depot/former power station site.

There was a project to separate off the LU sections, though with the advent of S stock I’m not sure how necessary this is.
 

Dstock7080

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Now for a question. In the programme they stated that the supply current is 750V DC being the SR standard and not the LU 630V (give or take a few). This surprised me. I thought that when the line was refurbished in the 1990's, a standard 4 rail LU system at 630V was installed. Does anyone know how the W&C 4 rail system is arranged? Does it follow LU practice of a totally isolated supply and splitting the voltage to perhaps give -250 V centre rail and + 500 V side rail. Or does it have a centre rail bonded to earth to give 0V and + 750V side rail.
In terms of supply, it was historically fed from the same substation as feeds the main lines out of Waterloo. Indeed the London end of the south western network has always been fed at 660V due to the presence of LU. Once clear of Wimbledon and Richmond I believe there is a gradual increase.

However things have changed more recently, as I believe the W&C now has its own dedicated traction substation located in the depot/former power station site.

There was a project to separate off the LU sections, though with the advent of S stock I’m not sure how necessary this is.
Waterloo & City has it's own substation, feeding 630v standard LU -210v centre, +420 side rails.
W&C 1992 Stock tested on the Central Line when new.
 

paulkidger

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Waterloo & City has it's own substation, feeding 630v standard LU -210v centre, +420 side rails.
W&C 1992 Stock tested on the Central Line when new.
In last night's programme, they were definite about the W&C being at 750 V as one of the differences it has over other LU lines. They also showed a few seconds of a view into the sub-station showing the transformers.
 

edwin_m

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I think the answer to your question is that the programme is designed for a general audience. The questions you raise whilst I find them interesting would put 95% of viewers off. It's a commercial TV station not a YouTube programme.

Now if Tim and Siddy could have their own camera with them and take it in turns to do some super geeky videos by themselves or the inevitable geeky parts that are cut and put on Youtube then these points could be addressed bit again would it be financially viable.
Siddy is one of the presenters of the Hidden London Hangouts on YouTube, which cover many of the same places as the TV programmes (though not the W&C as far as I remember) in more detail.


Our expert Hidden London team uncover the secrets of the Underground and take you behind the scenes at sites across the network usually unseen by the public.
 

paulkidger

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In last night's programme, they were definite about the W&C being at 750 V as one of the differences it has over other LU lines. They also showed a few seconds of a view into the sub-station showing the transformers.
Strangely, the same thing was said on the Friday evening's repeat.
 

davews

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Watched the repeat last night. Interesting but left a lot of things unanswered even little things like how long did it take them to walk the track... I actually found the Mark Lane part more interesting and informative.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Watched the repeat last night. Interesting but left a lot of things unanswered even little things like how long did it take them to walk the track...
The Waterloo and City line is only a mile-and-a-half from end-to-end, so even allowing for the introductory scenes at Waterloo, accessing the depot area and platform, ensuring that the current was off, picking one's way along the trackwork, stopping and starting at various locations and maybe having to repeat the same piece to camera as required, it's likely to have all been wrapped up in a hectic morning's/afternoon's filming.

@timmydunn occasionally posts on here, and will of course be in the know.
 

edwin_m

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Strangely, the same thing was said on the Friday evening's repeat.
It was said by one of the engineers working in the depot. You'd think they would know!

Aren't the sub-surface lines being upgraded to 750V? I think they had to wait until all the older fleets were out of the way, but the S stock is compatible.
 

paulkidger

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It was said by one of the engineers working in the depot. You'd think they would know!

Aren't the sub-surface lines being upgraded to 750V? I think they had to wait until all the older fleets were out of the way, but the S stock is compatible.
That would not surprise me as a way of getting more kw per amp as was the SR decision to uprate all those years ago. It also makes it convenient that 1 amp equals 1 hp. Then the SI system messes that up. There are cases where LU stock does run on Network Rail track at 750V with the centre rail bonded to earth. I think the tracks from Richmond are so arranged; there being a changeover, I think around Kew, to the -210V to +420 V. . Then there is the case of Specials run by the Met loco over SR tracks when the loco is fitted with brush boxes to provide a return path via the axles and wheels I believe that the electrical equipment has an insulation rating of 1500 V to earth.
 

swt_passenger

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That would not surprise me as a way of getting more kw per amp as was the SR decision to uprate all those years ago. It also makes it convenient that 1 amp equals 1 hp. Then the SI system messes that up. There are cases where LU stock does run on Network Rail track at 750V with the centre rail bonded to earth. I think the tracks from Richmond are so arranged; there being a changeover, I think around Kew, to the -210V to +420 V. . Then there is the case of Specials run by the Met loco over SR tracks when the loco is fitted with brush boxes to provide a return path via the axles and wheels I believe that the electrical equipment has an insulation rating of 1500 V to earth.
The Waterloo mainline area generally (but not Wimbledon/Richmond area) was only uprated to 750 volts comparatively recently, ie sometime before 2014. It isn’t just a matter of how the nominal voltage affected LU, there’s the allowable rise under regeneration conditions to cater for as well. Hence in the 2017 updates to the enhancement delivery plan the interfaces with LU in the Wimbledon and Richmond areas were being explained as in the future, delayed until after the full S stock introduction. Separation of the W&C 660 volt supplies was reported as a future task in 2016, but a completed task in 2017.
 

timmydunn

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I think I can cover off the above by agreeing with the poster(s) who noted that it’s for a general audience. That said, I think it’s fair to say as well that production team do create it so that everyone but the very niche Underground specialist will find something of new interest. Sure, we might not note the vents - it’s not an exhaustive documentation of a location or line, but a bit of a “best of”. Every enthusiast will have their fave fact or feature - in 20ish mins we can’t get it all in - it’d drive the wider audience off and I often like to think about these programmes as gateways to finding out more from other sources. There are YouTubes and books for that next stage - should the subterranean ferroequinology bug bite!

What I am so pleased to note is that it appeals to kids of 4 right up to the very senior management at TfL. It’s a programme that parents, grandparents and kids watch together - as do the spouses of enthusiasts too (who say that it’s so nice to have something that’s accessible, broad in context and appeal, as well as the unapologetically nerdy at times) - and especially in today’s rather tricky broadcast media world, that’s something to enjoy.
 

Ashley Hill

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There are YouTubes and books for that next stage - should the subterranean ferroequinology bug bite!
Indeed,I’ve recently started watching Hidden London Hangouts on YouTube,some fascinating stuff! They are made by the LT museum team so there’s some faces you’ll recognise from the telly.
 

Kite159

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Another good episode exploring the remains of King William Street, the upgrade work at Bank & Knightsbridge. The new entrance in the style of the old entrance looked very nicely done.

My mum is enjoying it so much she is badgering me to look into tickets to visit the museum near Covent Garden
 

EbbwJunction1

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I'd also recommend a visit to the Depot at Action, which features heavily in the series. It's not a conventional museum, but contains much more than you'll see at Convent Garden, even though that's very good as well.
 

Busaholic

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I'd also recommend a visit to the Depot at Action, which features heavily in the series. It's not a conventional museum, but contains much more than you'll see at Convent Garden, even though that's very good as well.
Yes, Action at Acton. ;)
 

Crisso

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I wish to concur that, this new series of Secrets of the Underground has reached the perfect balance of reaching both a general audience, together with maintaining the interest of a more specialist rail enthusiast one.

The Waterloo & City Line episode was very interesting - I've always liked the OVS Bulleid inspired 1940 stock and remember riding them back in the 1960's, when still in British Railways SR Green livery. Other things I recollected at that time, was the novelty of the Travolator; lack of a suicide pit between the tracks at Bank Station and; only a third rail! Lastly, I was amused back when the same stock was repainted into British Rail Blue, the carriage end metal ventilators, which had originally featured integral letterwork stating 'Southern' and 'Railway' on each side - then, the latter was replaced with a new part now stating 'Region'! Must get it right! :smile:

However, the episode featuring King William Street and the City & South London Locomotive and Padded Cell Stock was very educational. As well as the very short life of the City terminus, I believe it had been a major oversight to by pass and exclude an interim station at London Bridge to serve the SE&CR/L&BSCR Station there. Although, I understand the new tube railway couldn't reach an agreement with the Main Line Railway, when originally constructing, for such an accomodation?

Lastly, I didn't realise Knightsbridge Station was being upgraded further with more entrance and exits at the original station end. I thought the Hans Crescent passageway, entrance and exit added in the early 1930's, covered all of the local bases, being done to minimise the inconvenience and facilitate the closing of the fairly close by Brompton Road Station? I must revisit the station soon to reorientate myself of what's being added/changed.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Lastly, I didn't realise Knightsbridge Station was being upgraded further with more entrance and exits at the original station end. I thought the Hans Crescent passageway, entrance and exit added in the early 1930's, covered all of the local bases, being done to minimise the inconvenience and facilitate the closing of the fairly close by Brompton Road Station? I must revisit the station soon to reorientate myself of what's being added/changed.
Talking of Brompton Road, believe that this now closed station is featured in this week's episode (Thursday 26th May 2022).
 

timmydunn

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It does and its survival - as well as the WW2 elements - is remarkable.
Tell yer what, I see a lot of weird stuff but THIS at Brompton Road is one sign you don't expect to find in a tube station in central London...

IMG_1977.jpg
 

pitdiver

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It does and its survival - as well as the WW2 elements - is remarkable.
Tell yer what, I see a lot of weird stuff but THIS at Brompton Road is one sign you don't expect to find in a tube station in central London...

View attachment 115264
Been down Brompton Rd a few times. Took a German TV Crew down there once. Fancy trying to explain to German TV viewers what went on there during that " Major International Incident". That's how I heard WW2 described in Iceland. ( I used to be Front Of House Manager at the LT Museum so have been to a few of the places you have visited)
 

Ken H

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I havent seen then W&C episode yet. Did they mention the Dick Kerr original cars from when the W&C opened. They were unique in that they has bus lines running the length of the train. An arrangement that was outlawed by the Board of Trade soon after as a fire risk. All UK electric trains after that were multiple units - each motor car had its own current collection stuff. Till the Pendolino, I think.
 

Ashley Hill

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Been down Brompton Rd a few times. Took a German TV Crew down there once. Fancy trying to explain to German TV viewers what went on there during that " Major International Incident". That's how I heard WW2 described in Iceland. ( I used to be Front Of House Manager at the LT Museum so have been to a few of the places you have visited)
Were both remaining platform areas similarly still tiled or just the one shown on the programme?
 

Mikw

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Just started watching this programme, it's really interesting and nicely presented.


Siddy is fast becoming my "Tube nerd crush". I did have a fantastically smutty line worked out, but better not say it here.....
 

londonbridge

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Strange to think of a tube station being called “Post Office”…..I noticed “British museum” on the original central line map, looking it up I see that’s been closed almost ninety years now. I note it was also used as military offices but not mentioned alongside Brompton Road, but then you can’t fit everything into an hour long programme…I’m learning so much from this programme, it just gets better by the week.
 
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