EMR Class 360's

MML · 1 Jun 2022

Had a similar occurrence a few months ago. Initially blamed on someone pulling the emergency chord leading to a late departure from St Pancras while the system was reset. Only for the brakes to be reapplied at Elstree and another reset. Only to occur again and limp into Luton Airport Parkway where the service was terminated.
In other news, today's 0539 Corby service is cancelled due to a fault with the traction equipment.

RailUK Forums

spotify95 · 1 Jun 2022

baz962 said:
I knew it was 110 between Wellingborough and Bedford , but I was told that it's only 100 between Kettering and Wellingborough, although as you know they come back on the slow from ket to wel .

The Slow line between Kettering and Wellingborough is rated maximum 90mph. You'd only see 110mph running if the 360 was moved over onto the Fast, which won't happen until the Intercity service has passed it.

More observations today:

07:39 - Wellingborough to Kettering - Short formation (4 car)
08:11 - Wellingborough to Kettering - Canceled

Really not seeing how they don't have 10 of 21 units working - they can't have 10 units working if one is canceled (2 units less) and one is short (1 unit less). In which case, why the hell has EMR not got better units than the 360s?

QSK19 · 1 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
In which case, why the hell has EMR not got better units than the 360s?

Most likely cheaper leasing costs. I personally feel that the 379s would have been a great fit (younger by about 7-8 years, gangwayed and 30 units); but it seems like money rules everything these days, even if one knows there are going to be significant problems with the cheaper option.

Let’s hope that they don’t scrimp on the internal refurbishment - it would be a disgrace and thoroughly disrespectful to Connect users if they cut corners on that aspect.

baz962 · 1 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
The Slow line between Kettering and Wellingborough is rated maximum 90mph. You'd only see 110mph running if the 360 was moved over onto the Fast, which won't happen until the Intercity service has passed it.

More observations today:

07:39 - Wellingborough to Kettering - Short formation (4 car)
08:11 - Wellingborough to Kettering - Canceled

Really not seeing how they don't have 10 of 21 units working - they can't have 10 units working if one is canceled (2 units less) and one is short (1 unit less). In which case, why the hell has EMR not got better units than the 360s?

I know the linespeed is 90 on the slow , my point is that it's not 110 on the fast. It's 110 for the meridians and the 360 is 100 max between Kettering and Wellingborough.

Mikw · 1 Jun 2022

baz962 said:
I know the linespeed is 90 on the slow , my point is that it's not 110 on the fast. It's 110 for the meridians and the 360 is 100 max between Kettering and Wellingborough.

Don't suppose the speed there makes much difference as journey time is only about 7 minutes

JonathanH · 1 Jun 2022

QSK19 said:
Most likely cheaper leasing costs. I personally feel that the 379s would have been a great fit (younger by about 7-8 years, gangwayed and 30 units); but it seems like money rules everything these days, even if one knows there are going to be significant

A fleet of 21 units was the perfect size for the services planned. They didn't need 30 units and the 360s were available sooner. Not just money.

A0wen · 1 Jun 2022

JonathanH said:
A fleet of 21 units was the perfect size for the services planned. They didn't need 30 units and the 360s were available sooner. Not just money.

Quite - you can also add in local servicing arrangements - Bedford Cauldwell is handling other Siemens units (700s) and Kings Heath (Northampton) is also used to handling the 350s (which are very similar to the 360s) - whereas the nearest depot currently maintaining Electrostars would be Hornsey.

Roast Veg · 1 Jun 2022

A0wen said:
Quite - you can also add in local servicing arrangements - Bedford Cauldwell is handling other Siemens units (700s) and Kings Heath (Northampton) is also used to handling the 350s (which are very similar to the 360s) - whereas the nearest depot currently maintaining Electrostars would be Hornsey.

I'm not sure there would be a world of difference maintenance wise in this hypothetical scenario, it would just be e.g. Ilford instead of Kings Heath. Bedford would be able to manage the 379s just fine - the difference between the 360s and 700s is pretty big anyway.

spotify95 · 2 Jun 2022

baz962 said:
I know the linespeed is 90 on the slow , my point is that it's not 110 on the fast. It's 110 for the meridians and the 360 is 100 max between Kettering and Wellingborough.

But if the 360s are indeed allowed to do HST speeds, as mentioned by other posters on here previously, then the 360s can do 110mph between Wellingborough and Kettering (and vice versa) if on the fast lines. In fact, the fast line Kettering to Wellingborough is rated 120 for a short section, but the 360s are only capable of 110.

baz962 · 2 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
But if the 360s are indeed allowed to do HST speeds, as mentioned by other posters on here previously, then the 360s can do 110mph between Wellingborough and Kettering (and vice versa) if on the fast lines. In fact, the fast line Kettering to Wellingborough is rated 120 for a short section, but the 360s are only capable of 110.

Because they are only allowed to do 100 and not HST speed. 222 only can do 110 on the down and 120 on the up.

westcoaster · 2 Jun 2022

Mr MITRAC said:
Cricklewood (MML) - South Tottenham - Stratford - Camden Road - Northampton (WCML).

GBRf contracted using Class 47 diesel haulage to Siemens Kings Heath TMD for heavy maintenance. Talk about 'round the houses'...

Could be done under there own power., If route cleared to St Pancras low level.

Cricklewood - St Pancras low level (RM)-canal tunnel- Finsbury park (RM)- kings cross incline- NLL- WCML to Northampton.

A0wen · 2 Jun 2022

westcoaster said:
Could be done under there own power., If route cleared to St Pancras low level.

Cricklewood - St Pancras low level (RM)-canal tunnel- Finsbury park (RM)- kings cross incline- NLL- WCML to Northampton.

BIB - and Canal Tunnel, Finsbury Pk - Kings Cross, KX incline and NLL....... None of which they are likely to be cleared for at present as they wouldn't have worked those. In fact they may not be cleared for the WCML (just because the 350s are doesn't mean the 360s are, after all the 321s were cleared to Birmingham but the 319s weren't cleared beyond Rugby).

59CosG95 · 2 Jun 2022

westcoaster said:
Could be done under there own power., If route cleared to St Pancras low level.

Cricklewood - St Pancras low level (RM)-canal tunnel- Finsbury park (RM)- kings cross incline- NLL- WCML to Northampton.

That'd never catch on! Both tunnel routes north of St Pancras are too tightly interworked.
Perhaps extending Cauldwell is the best solution.

Class 170101 · 2 Jun 2022

59CosG95 said:
That'd never catch on! Both tunnel routes north of St Pancras are too tightly interworked.
Perhaps extending Cauldwell is the best solution.

Just wire East West Railway and they can run under their own power to Kings Heath from Bedford

.

43066 · 2 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
But if the 360s are indeed allowed to do HST speeds

They aren’t.

Pumbaa · 2 Jun 2022

westcoaster said:
Could be done under there own power., If route cleared to St Pancras low level.

Cricklewood - St Pancras low level (RM)-canal tunnel- Finsbury park (RM)- kings cross incline- NLL- WCML to Northampton.

When being introduced, the route clearance work was undertaken for exactly this route. Unfortunately the fixed OLE bar is out of gauge for 360s at St Pancras LL, and the design of the 110mph pantograph mods made it worse. Not an engineer, but AIUI the 360 pantograph arm can’t go low enough as the box actually has some very tight clearances. So it was dropped.

59CosG95 · 3 Jun 2022

Pumbaa said:
When being introduced, the route clearance work was undertaken for exactly this route. Unfortunately the fixed OLE bar is out of gauge for 360s at St Pancras LL, and the design of the 110mph pantograph mods made it worse. Not an engineer, but AIUI the 360 pantograph arm can’t go low enough as the box actually has some very tight clearances. So it was dropped.

The "OLE Bible" states that the 350/1s and 700s have the same pantograph model as the 110-rated 360s - the Brecknell Willis HS-P Mark 2.
Perhaps it's a combined problem with the Desiro UK bodyshell and the new pan arm; all the 387s and 700s using the core had that same pan from new.

Pumbaa · 3 Jun 2022

59CosG95 said:
The "OLE Bible" states that the 350/1s and 700s have the same pantograph model as the 110-rated 360s - the Brecknell Willis HS-P Mark 2.
Perhaps it's a combined problem with the Desiro UK bodyshell and the new pan arm; all the 387s and 700s using the core had that same pan from new.

Must be. It was a long running investigation, as it was clearly the most sensible thing to do for stock moves.

spotify95 · 6 Jun 2022

baz962 said:
Because they are only allowed to do 100 and not HST speed. 222 only can do 110 on the down and 120 on the up.

43066 said:
They aren’t.

See attached image - from posts #2471 and #2472 of this thread. Which certainly suggests that the 360's are cleared for "HST" speeds where the OHLE supports running above 100mph.

Not that this would make much difference to journey times when KET-WEL, a stretch that would allow the 360s to hit 110mph, is done on the Slows (and therefore 90mph limited), and WEL-KET (the other stretch that is 110 for HSTs/222s) the 360s would likely not reach 110 before it has to slow down for Kettering South Junction.

Which also asks the other question: if they knew that these junctions would routinely be used for Corby services to transfer from the Fasts to the Slows (and vice versa), why did they not increase the line speed through the points/junctions, since the bottleneck is having to slow down in time for a 30mph limit, and such an aggressive deceleration will have an impact on the Sheffield behind it, as the Sheffield is usually right on the tail of the Corby when it leaves Wellingborough!
So, for the sake of the Intercity, why not move the 360 to the Slows at Wellingborough North instead of Kettering South?

baz962 · 6 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
See attached image - from posts #2471 and #2472 of this thread. Which certainly suggests that the 360's are cleared for "HST" speeds where the OHLE supports running above 100mph.

View attachment 115779

Not that this would make much difference to journey times when KET-WEL, a stretch that would allow the 360s to hit 110mph, is done on the Slows (and therefore 90mph limited), and WEL-KET (the other stretch that is 110 for HSTs/222s) the 360s would likely not reach 110 before it has to slow down for Kettering South Junction.

Which also asks the other question: if they knew that these junctions would routinely be used for Corby services to transfer from the Fasts to the Slows (and vice versa), why did they not increase the line speed through the points/junctions, since the bottleneck is having to slow down in time for a 30mph limit, and such an aggressive deceleration will have an impact on the Sheffield behind it, as the Sheffield is usually right on the tail of the Corby when it leaves Wellingborough!
So, for the sake of the Intercity, why not move the 360 to the Slows at Wellingborough North instead of Kettering South?

Cleared or not . Maybe it's an EMR thing itself. But I have it on good authority ( at least four EMR Di and mentors) that they aren't allowed to do over 100 . Only between Bedford and Wellingborough can they do 110 .

Kneedown · 6 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
See attached image - from posts #2471 and #2472 of this thread. Which certainly suggests that the 360's are cleared for "HST" speeds where the OHLE supports running above 100mph.

View attachment 115779

Not that this would make much difference to journey times when KET-WEL, a stretch that would allow the 360s to hit 110mph, is done on the Slows (and therefore 90mph limited), and WEL-KET (the other stretch that is 110 for HSTs/222s) the 360s would likely not reach 110 before it has to slow down for Kettering South Junction.

Which also asks the other question: if they knew that these junctions would routinely be used for Corby services to transfer from the Fasts to the Slows (and vice versa), why did they not increase the line speed through the points/junctions, since the bottleneck is having to slow down in time for a 30mph limit, and such an aggressive deceleration will have an impact on the Sheffield behind it, as the Sheffield is usually right on the tail of the Corby when it leaves Wellingborough!
So, for the sake of the Intercity, why not move the 360 to the Slows at Wellingborough North instead of Kettering South?

I should have added the caveat "subject to linespeed".
My reference was concerning the OHLE speeds.

westcoaster · 6 Jun 2022

360113 is now back from Eastleigh. It was brought back to cricklewood at the end of last week. Just moving to Cauldwell for vinyls to be attached.

43066 · 6 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
See attached image - from posts #2471 and #2472 of this thread. Which certainly suggests that the 360's are cleared for "HST" speeds where the OHLE supports running above 100mph.

As per @Kneedown ’s post, there’s a distinction between basic linespeed and HST/EMU differential speeds, with EMU speeds based on what the OHLE is capable of.

360s aren’t cleared to use HST differentials, hence they’re limited to the lower of basic linespeed or EMU speed, up to the 110 max speed the units are authorised to run at.

Thus 360s can currently do 110 between Bedford and Wellingborough because it’s 110 linespeed (HST speeds are higher). North of Wellingborough they’re limited to 100 max linespeed (again higher for HSTs). South of Bedford it’s 100 max for all EMUs, regardless of linespeed.

Eg in the Radlett area there are speed boards indicating 100EMU, 110 line speed, 125 HST. The EMU speeds south of Bedford will be amended once the OHLE is upgraded to 125mph operation.

(Apologies, that’s somewhat laboriously written, but hopefully makes sense!).

Kneedown · 6 Jun 2022

43066 said:
As per @Kneedown ’s post, there’s a distinction between basic linespeed and HST/EMU differential speeds, with EMU speeds based on what the OHLE is capable of.

360s aren’t cleared to use HST differentials, hence they’re limited to the greater of basic linespeed or EMU speed, up to the 110 max speed the units are authorised to run at.

Thus 360s can currently do 110 between Bedford and Wellingborough because it’s 110 linespeed (HST speeds are higher). North of Wellingborough they’re limited to 100 max linespeed (again higher for HSTs). South of Bedford it’s 100 max for all EMUs, regardless of linespeed.

Eg in the Radlett area there are speed boards indicating 100EMU, 110 line speed, 125 HST. The EMU speeds south of Bedford will be amended once the OHLE is upgraded to 125mph operation.

(Apologies, that’s somewhat laboriously written, but hopefully makes sense!).

Just to add, that doesn't mean they won't be cleared to take HST speed differentials in the future, but as it currently stands they are not permitted. A few years ago 158s got authority to run at HST differentials up to 90mph, so anything is possible.

spotify95 · 6 Jun 2022

Kneedown said:
I should have added the caveat "subject to linespeed".
My reference was concerning the OHLE speeds.

Ok understood. I got confused then, sorry about that.
So, correct me if I am wrong - but from what I understand - 360s are permitted to use the base line speed (up to 110mph), but NOT the higher HST speeds - unless there is a specific EMU restriction that is lower than this (i.e. 100 between Bedford and St Pancras due to OHLE restrictions)?

dereksingh291 · 6 Jun 2022

Any idea when the EMR 360s will be internally refurbished?

fgwrich · 7 Jun 2022

Birmingham36 said:
Any idea when the EMR 360s will be internally refurbished?

When the DfT says so?

It is literally the only answer at the moment sadly. The buck stops with them, and they are the ones now calling the shots. EMR says hopefully soon, but that of course has to be cleared first by those above.

Kneedown · 7 Jun 2022

spotify95 said:
Ok understood. I got confused then, sorry about that.
So, correct me if I am wrong - but from what I understand - 360s are permitted to use the base line speed (up to 110mph), but NOT the higher HST speeds - unless there is a specific EMU restriction that is lower than this (i.e. 100 between Bedford and St Pancras due to OHLE restrictions)?

That sounds spot on to me.

QSK19 · 7 Jun 2022

fgwrich said:
When the DfT says so?

The pessimist in me would slightly reword that to: If the DfT says so.

I’m losing that bit more hope as each day goes by. At this rate, I think we EMR users should set expectations at there being no refurbishment of these nor the 170s and anything above that is a bonus.

LowLevel · 7 Jun 2022

QSK19 said:
The pessimist in me would slightly reword that to: If the DfT says so.

I’m losing that bit more hope as each day goes by. At this rate, I think we EMR users should set expectations at there being no refurbishment of these nor the 170s and anything above that is a bonus.

I think both fleets will get done, eventually - whether it will.be as comprehensive as originally planned though who knows. That would be less of an issue in the case of 170s, which already have a high quality interior of course - that being brought back to as new would still be a good thing.

The 360s though obviously need rather more love.

EMR Class 360's

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