Signalling Quiz 7

Railsigns · 23 Jan 2011

Below are photographs of six signals on the National Rail network. In each case, something about the signal is not in accordance with standards. You just have to say what's wrong.

Bonus points for saying where each signal is located, though I may deduct points for sub-standard English!

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

RailUK Forums

Hydro · 23 Jan 2011

2. red aspect at the bottom

3. fixed distant, but denoted as a sign

4. signal ID plate is all letters

5. ID plate is black on white?

Tomnick · 23 Jan 2011

1. Not sure - the height of distant arm isn't sufficiently far above rail level? (Barnetby East's Down Slow Starter)

2. The red aspect isn't nearest Driver's eye level (Harrogate)

3. The 'fishtail' is missing from the yellow band.

4. The signal appears to be a distant signal from the number (1R), but is plated as an automatic. (Somewhere around Westbury?)

5. Black lettering on a white background? (Malvern Wells' Down Distant)

6. Not sure - gap in backboard between main signal head and junction indicator? (Leicester)

Coxster · 23 Jan 2011

3. There is no white pointed end penetrating the yellow semaphore part of the distant board.

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

Some good answers so far, though none of the answers I'm looking for concern distances being either too short or too long.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Okay, here are the answers:

1. (Barnetby) As a signal post telephone is provided, there should be no diamond sign on the signal post.

2. (Harrogate) On a ground mounted signal, the most restrictive aspect (i.e. red) should be at the top, nearest to the driver's eye level.

3. (Taynuilt) This reflectorised distant board lacks a fishtail at the left-hand end of the yellow band.

4. (Cardiff Fairwater) An automatic/passable signal plate should not be fitted if the signal cannot display a red aspect.

5. (Great Malvern) The 'delta' plate should be coloured white on black, not black on white. The meaning of a black triangle is not defined in the Rule Book.

6. (Leicester) The wrong kind of LED signal head is fitted for a signal located on right of drivers. The 'eyebrow' LEDs for close-up viewing should be on the opposite side of the aperture.

Tomnick is the clear winner, with 8 points out of a possible 12.

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
1. (Barnetby) As a signal post telephone is provided, there should be no diamond sign on the signal post.

The white diamond merely indicates the presence of track circuits. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be a telephone surely?

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

pendolino said:
The white diamond merely indicates the presence of track circuits. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be a telephone surely?

That's a common misunderstanding, so I'm not surprised that somebody has challenged me.

The requirements for diamond signs are mandated quite clearly in Railway Group Standards GE/RT8048 and GI/RT7033.

Consider this: How come every signal along the length of the WCML and ECML isn't fitted with a diamond sign, when both routes have track circuits (or axle counters) from end to end? It's because they all have telephones!

GB · 29 Jan 2011

I thought the white diamond was to indicate that the signal is infact an IB signal and that said IB signal has associated track circuits?

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
That's a common misunderstanding, so I'm not surprised that somebody has challenged me.

The requirements for diamond signs are mandated quite clearly in Railway Group Standards GE/RT8048 and GI/RT7033.

Consider this: How come every signal along the length of the WCML and ECML isn't fitted with a diamond sign, when both routes have track circuits (or axle counters) from end to end? It's because they all have telephones!

So the diamond just tells the driver he doesn't have to go down to the track and telephone the signalman if stopped by a red? If so, does that mean should the signalman wish to stop the train with the purpose of speaking to the driver, he should do so at a signal without a diamond sign?

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
That's a common misunderstanding, so I'm not surprised that somebody has challenged me.

The requirements for diamond signs are mandated quite clearly in Railway Group Standards GE/RT8048 and GI/RT7033.

Consider this: How come every signal along the length of the WCML and ECML isn't fitted with a diamond sign, when both routes have track circuits (or axle counters) from end to end? It's because they all have telephones!

I thought it was because the white diamond signs were originally used in semaphore areas where it wasn't clear whether track circuits were fitted?

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

GB said:
I thought the white diamond was to indicate that the signal is infact (sic) an IB signal and that said IB signal has associated track circuits?

Goodness, you do need to brush up on these things, then. The plate which identifies an I.B. signal has a vertical black stripe on a white rectangular background.

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
Goodness, you do need to brush up on these things, then. The plate which identifies an I.B. signal has a vertical black stripe on a white rectangular background.

LOL Consider yourself ticked off, boys! lol

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

GB said:
I thought the white diamond was to indicate that the signal is infact an IB signal and that said IB signal has associated track circuits?

By IB do you mean Intermediate Block Home signal? Indicated by black signal plate with vertical white stripe, unless you mean something different?

edit: or black on white! as railsigns says. I've NEVER seen one, none round here that I know of.

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

pendolino said:
I thought it was because the white diamond signs were originally used in semaphore areas where it wasn't clear whether track circuits were fitted?

The form of signal (semaphore or colour light) and the method of working (absolute block or track circuit block) are both irrelevant. The diamond sign advises the driver of train detained at the signal that the train is protected and there is no need to remind the signalman of its presence.

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
The form of signal (semaphore or colour light) and the method of working (absolute block or track circuit block) are both irrelevant. The diamond sign advises the driver of train detained at the signal that the train is protected and there is no need to remind the signalman of its presence.

So signalmen will stop trains at signals without the diamond if they wish to communicate with the driver?

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
The form of signal (semaphore or colour light) and the method of working (absolute block or track circuit block) are both irrelevant. The diamond sign advises the driver of train detained at the signal that the train is protected and there is no need to remind the signalman of its presence.

But Rule Book S4 says:

A white diamond sign at a signal means that the presence of the
train or shunting movement is indicated to the signaller by a track
circuit.

Which is what I was referring to.

GB · 29 Jan 2011

Fair enough, but I don't work in areas with such signals and it HAS been a while since going through the rule book.

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

strange6 said:
So signalmen will stop trains at signals without the diamond if they wish to communicate with the driver?

The other option is to hold a red flag out of the signal box window (having cautioned the train at the previous signal).

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
The other option is to hold a red flag out of the signal box window (having cautioned the train at the previous signal).

....which is something else I would never experience round here!

edit: I'm not sure London Bridge or Three Bridges or Victoria even have windows that open, so I'm not sure how they'd wave a red flag at me

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
The other option is to hold a red flag out of the signal box window (having cautioned the train at the previous signal).

Yeah, I saw that quite often some 20 or so years back at specific signalboxes. Very rarely see it being done these days now though

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

pendolino said:
But Rule Book S4 says:

"A white diamond sign at a signal means that the presence of the
train or shunting movement is indicated to the signaller by a track
circuit."

Which is what I was referring to.

That bit you've quoted comes from Section 3, which is headed "Train detained at a signal with no telephone".

Actually, the Rule Book is not totally correct, as there are situations where a diamond sign may be provided on a signal but there is no track circuit (e.g. where the train is protected by the Tokenless Block system).

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
That bit you've quoted comes from Section 3, which is headed "Train detained at a signal with no telephone".

Actually, the Rule Book is not totally correct, as there are situations where a diamond sign may be provided on a signal but there is no track circuit (e.g. where the train is protected by the Tokenless Block system).

Jesus. No wonder train drivers undergo nigh on 12 months training. driving the train itself is the easy part

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
That bit you've quoted comes from Section 3, which is headed "Train detained at a signal with no telephone".

Actually, the Rule Book is not totally correct, as there are situations where a diamond sign may be provided on a signal but there is no track circuit (e.g. where the train is protected by the Tokenless Block system).

It's also in section 4.2 under 'Limited clearance at signal post telephones' (albeit with a telephone number plate). [edit: by which I mean the illustration in section 4.2 shows a white diamond]

It seems the Rule Book and the standards for signalling have a few inconsistencies then? Probably because the Rule Book is written in 'plain English' I would imagine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

strange6 said:
Jesus. No wonder train drivers undergo nigh on 12 months training. driving the train itself is the easy part

Yes, rules is probably the hardest and most confusing part for many trainees - particularly, as GB says, and in my experience too, there are a lot of rules to learn that in many parts of the country you will never need to use, such that as soon as you get your key they soon disappear from memory.

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

pendolino said:
It's also in section 4.2 under 'Limited clearance at signal post telephones' (albeit with a telephone number plate).

So it is. Something isn't quite right, though. That section is describing telephone number plates, and these can either be accompanied by a plain diamond sign (if there's no telephone) or by a diamond sign with an "X" (if there's a limited clearance telephone). It would have been more appropriate if the Rule Book had shown the one with an "X" there.

pendolino · 29 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
So it is. Something isn't quite right, though. That section is describing telephone number plates, and these can either be accompanied by a plain diamond sign (if there's no telephone) or by a diamond sign with an "X" (if there's a limited clearance telephone). It would have been more appropriate if the Rule Book had shown the one with an "X" there.

I must admit I find that part of the Rule Book a bit confusing (mostly because it's not something I ever really use - it's all CSR round here) - my logic was that in Sec 3 it states that the white diamond indicates the presence of track circuits, whereas the same sign is shown in Sec 4.2 relating to limited clearance telephones, so it didn't occur to me that the plain white diamond might refer to the lack of SPT.

I agree with you about the X though - what you're suggesting does seem logical.

edit: oh wait, this is the railway! And I used the word 'logical'! I promise never to do that again, sorry.

Railsigns · 29 Jan 2011

pendolino said:
edit: oh wait, this is the railway! And I used the word 'logical'! I promise never to do that again, sorry.

9K43 · 29 Jan 2011

strange6 said:
So the diamond just tells the driver he doesn't have to go down to the track and telephone the signalman if stopped by a red? If so, does that mean should the signalman wish to stop the train with the purpose of speaking to the driver, he should do so at a signal without a diamond sign?

If stopped at a signal with a telephone and diamond sign, the driver would be on the spt as soon as possible(2 minutes).
He would do this as stopping at a red signal is wasting time on his journey whereby he may have to incur overtime or miss the last bus home, or be put inside for an hour to let a passenger train go in front.
It has been known for 6E72 Stanlow to Humber oil gas tanks to be stopped at Brewery Siding for a late running passenger, as a result the E72 covered the 40+miles back to HM in 2 hours.
The train was timed at 60mph, and in theory could covered this mileage in 1 hour.
Every second counts.
Then we go to Castleton Loop to go through it all again.

strange6 · 29 Jan 2011

9K43 said:
If stopped at a signal with a telephone and diamond sign, the driver would be on the spt as soon as possible(2 minutes).
He would do this as stopping at a red signal is wasting time on his journey whereby he may have to incur overtime or miss the last bus home, or be put inside for an hour to let a passenger train go in front.
It has been known for 6E72 Stanlow to Humber oil gas tanks to be stopped at Brewery Siding for a late running passenger, as a result the E72 covered the 40+miles back to HM in 2 hours.
The train was timed at 60mph, and in theory could covered this mileage in 1 hour.
Every second counts.
Then we go to Castleton Loop to go through it all again.

It's absolutely superb the stuff you learn on this forum; many thanks for all the postings. Railsigns really does know his stuff - are you listening NR?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

9K43 said:
If stopped at a signal with a telephone and diamond sign, the driver would be on the spt as soon as possible(2 minutes).
He would do this as stopping at a red signal is wasting time on his journey whereby he may have to incur overtime or miss the last bus home, or be put inside for an hour to let a passenger train go in front.
It has been known for 6E72 Stanlow to Humber oil gas tanks to be stopped at Brewery Siding for a late running passenger, as a result the E72 covered the 40+miles back to HM in 2 hours.
The train was timed at 60mph, and in theory could covered this mileage in 1 hour.
Every second counts.
Then we go to Castleton Loop to go through it all again.

That wouldn't be the Castleton near Rochdale would it? If it is, I must say their line quality needs sorting. The ride quality of a 142 approaching Castleton box is that bad that you really do get concerned for your safety when riding on the train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It has been known for 6E72 Stanlow to Humber oil gas tanks to be stopped at Brewery Siding for a late running passenger, as a result the E72 covered the 40+miles back to HM in 2 hours.

I think I know where you mean. During my regular trips to Rochdale we quite often have to wait at a red so that a late running Leeds from Victoria can overtake us.

9K43 · 30 Jan 2011

strange6 said:
It's absolutely superb the stuff you learn on this forum; many thanks for all the postings. Railsigns really does know his stuff - are you listening NR?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That wouldn't be the Castleton near Rochdale would it? If it is, I must say their line quality needs sorting. The ride quality of a 142 approaching Castleton box is that bad that you really do get concerned for your safety when riding on the train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It has been known for 6E72 Stanlow to Humber oil gas tanks to be stopped at Brewery Siding for a late running passenger, as a result the E72 covered the 40+miles back to HM in 2 hours.

I think I know where you mean. During my regular trips to Rochdale we quite often have to wait at a red so that a late running Leeds from Victoria can overtake us.

After leaving Brewery Sidings, you pass Newwton Heath Depot.
Just before Castleton is the M62, the track here is curved and the distant signal for the loop is just after the M62 bridge.
You approached this signal with caution just in case the bobby was going to steal more time from you and put you inside.
This is the same at Diggle on the LNW, the signaller would put you in the down loop, and the next train would pass you in 20 minutes time.
If he gave you the route ASP, the train would be going through Mirfield as it is all high speed railway.
The gas tanks would go through Victoria smack on
1700hrs and reach HM at 1930hrs, a distance of 44 miles.
Signallers like playing trains.

Tomnick · 30 Jan 2011

Railsigns said:
The form of signal (semaphore or colour light) and the method of working (absolute block or track circuit block) are both irrelevant. The diamond sign advises the driver of train detained at the signal that the train is protected and there is no need to remind the signalman of its presence.

No disagreement with the second part, but I'm not sure it makes any difference whether an SPT is provided or not (I can certainly think of numerous signals with a diamond and an SPT). I thought that the method of working was relevant as diamonds aren't provided on TCB lines (otherwise every signal on the WCML would have one, as you say).

Signalling Quiz 7

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