Engineering work on strike days?

Railcar · 9 Jun 2022

From the letters page of the i newspaper (9th June 2022)

'During the forthcoming rail strike, is there an opportunity to schedule engineering works for the days when no trins will be running?'

RailUK Forums

Peregrine 4903 · 9 Jun 2022

Railcar said:
From the letters page of the i newspaper (9th June 2022)
'During the forthcoming rail strike, is there an opportunity to schedule engineering works for the days when no trins will be running?'

Ummm, I its more the opposite. If signallers are only on duty from 7 - 7, it means outside of those times you won't be able to signal engineering trains in and out of the possession.

Some engineering work will get cancelled because of the strikes.

zwk500 · 9 Jun 2022

At this short notice, very little to no opportunity. The only things likely to get done are emergency repairs. And where signallers are on strike, nothing at all will get done.

55018ballymoss · 9 Jun 2022

Er, who is doing the work?
I was under the impression that Network Rail maintenance staff were also striking….
So, it is irrelevant if the signallers are there or not, if there are no staff on the ground

Peregrine 4903 · 9 Jun 2022

55018ballymoss said:
Er, who is doing the work?
I was under the impression that Network Rail maintenance staff were also striking….
So, it is irrelevant if the signallers are there or not, if there are no staff on the ground

There are still contractors that do the work. The signallers being on strike is the bigger issue and why a lot of the engineering work will be cancelled.

td97 · 9 Jun 2022

Without trains running there's a good opportunity to do surveys, inspections etc. which do not require engineering trains. But the bigger difficulty will be gaining possession access without a signaller

alxndr · 9 Jun 2022

zwk500 said:
At this short notice, very little to no opportunity. The only things likely to get done are emergency repairs. And where signallers are on strike, nothing at all will get done.

And even then emergency repairs are only likely to happen if sufficient non-striking staff can be found to complete the repair. That type of work is not typically done by contractors.

Signal_Box · 10 Jun 2022

With Red Zone working banned on the majority of the network even if there are no trains work can’t take place without a line block. No signaller, no line block, from what I’m hearing those who have been signed off as competent work signalling locations aren’t permitted to grant line blocks….
There will also be an issue with planned patrol works not being able to be taken again due to PWay staff, and signallers being on strike, a risk that patrols wont be carried out and sections of line having to be closed as safety inspections having not been undertaken within the specified times.

td97 said:
Without trains running there's a good opportunity to do surveys, inspections etc. which do not require engineering trains. But the bigger difficulty will be gaining possession access without a signaller

Almost all work now requires a line blockpage, even just for access. No signaller, no line block, no work.

Surreytraveller · 10 Jun 2022

Indeed. Signallers need to give and take back line blocks. Electrical Control Rooms need to switch off and back on the traction current

Gems · 10 Jun 2022

Don't you just love letters pages in newspapers.
Letters pages are like twitter and online forums, they give people the opportunity to air their thoughts, that doesn't mean they are worth listening to.

Mintona · 10 Jun 2022

If those who are working signalling locations aren’t able to grant line blocks, what happens in the case of a broken down train where the driver needs to get out to examine/isolate cocks?

Val3ntine · 10 Jun 2022

Mintona said:
If those who are working signalling locations aren’t able to grant line blocks, what happens in the case of a broken down train where the driver needs to get out to examine/isolate cocks?

I may be confused, but how would the train be there in the first place?

Edit.. Actually ignore me, I see now you mean the contingency signallers may not have the authority to grant line blocks! My apologies.

zwk500 · 10 Jun 2022

Mintona said:
If those who are working signalling locations aren’t able to grant line blocks, what happens in the case of a broken down train where the driver needs to get out to examine/isolate cocks?

I would hope that the only places where signallers who can't grant line blocks are rostered for are multi-staffed boxes, and the Shift Manager or a signaller from another workstation can take over the panel for the bits the rostered signaller isn't able to do.

The Planner · 10 Jun 2022

They will take them on a contingency basis, but planned ones are unlikely to keep the workload down.

Amlag · 10 Jun 2022

The Planner said:
They will take them on a contingency basis, but planned ones are unlikely to keep the workload down.

Engrs etc Possessions, that do not require a Signal Box to be open during a possession, can be taken just before a S.Box closes and given upon just after the S.Box opens.

The Planner · 10 Jun 2022

Amlag said:
Engrs etc Possessions, that do not require a Signal Box to be open during a possession, can be taken just before a S.Box closes and given upon just after the S.Box opens.

Had it on good authority that at a lot of locations, unless its the resident signaller then the possession gets binned.

Signal_Box · 10 Jun 2022

Mintona said:
If those who are working signalling locations aren’t able to grant line blocks, what happens in the case of a broken down train where the driver needs to get out to examine/isolate cocks?

I don’t think they’ve got that far in their thinking….a case of fingers crossed

zwk500 said:
I would hope that the only places where signallers who can't grant line blocks are rostered for are multi-staffed boxes, and the Shift Manager or a signaller from another workstation can take over the panel for the bits the rostered signaller isn't able to do.

There is no way another signaller will be helping out a CS, their competent after all.

Horizon22 · 10 Jun 2022

Railcar said:
From the letters page of the i newspaper (9th June 2022)
'During the forthcoming rail strike, is there an opportunity to schedule engineering works for the days when no trins will be running?'

Unlikely considering many of those maintenance grades are also on strike. Not to mention that in my area they need Shift Signaller Managers (SSMs) to ensure possessions go ahead, and they’ll probably be on the panel during strikes. If at all, considering they’re might not be any staff availability overnight if it’s just 0700-1900 as has been mooted.

Signal_Box · 10 Jun 2022

The Planner said:
Had it on good authority that at a lot of locations, unless its the resident signaller then the possession gets binned.

As far as I’m concerned if you sign your name as competent you should take on all duties of a full signaller.

Surreytraveller · 10 Jun 2022

Signal_Box said:
As far as I’m concerned if you sign your name as competent you should take on all duties of a full signaller.

Surely its made up of several different competencies? Especially in a large box

BrummieBobby · 10 Jun 2022

Signal_Box said:
As far as I’m concerned if you sign your name as competent you should take on all duties of a full signaller.

Exactly- if you are competent to sign a signal box / panel then you are competent to grant a line block. As you have stated, line blocks don't just cover planned work, they also cover failed trains, stop and examine, items dropped from platforms and fault / incident responses.

If you are not competent to grant a line block, you should not be signing the book to take the controls. It is a highly dangerous development to allow unqualified people to take the controls without supervision.

Signal_Box · 10 Jun 2022

Surreytraveller said:
Surely its made up of several different competencies? Especially in a large box

Yes, but there is no semi qualified state. You are qualified or not no middle ground.

alxndr · 10 Jun 2022

Signal_Box said:
Yes, but there is no semi qualified state. You are qualified or not no middle ground.

The covid contingency plans did have several scenarios where trains could be run but no blockages could be taken, e.g. one signaller covering two workstations. Whether they could bring back those plans and risk assessments to cover the strike action or not I don't know.

Signal_Box · 10 Jun 2022

alxndr said:
The covid contingency plans did have several scenarios where trains could be run but no blockages could be taken, e.g. one signaller covering two workstations. Whether they could bring back those plans and risk assessments to cover the strike action or not I don't know.

We bent over backwards to help out during Covid allowing a lot of local agreements to be amended etc.

Industrial action isn’t covid, the latter couldn’t of been helped - industrial action can be.

Facing Back · 10 Jun 2022

Signal_Box said:
We bent over backwards to help out during Covid allowing a lot of local agreements to be amended etc.

Industrial action isn’t covid, the latter couldn’t of been helped - industrial action can be.

Didnt the Scottish agreement recognise this explicitly? It doesnt help you directly but the prededent it there. Part of the rise to recognise flexibility and part to regcognise cost of living increases?

alxndr · 11 Jun 2022

Signal_Box said:
We bent over backwards to help out during Covid allowing a lot of local agreements to be amended etc.

Industrial action isn’t covid, the latter couldn’t of been helped - industrial action can be.

I know, and I agree that the circumstances are vastly different, however, it doesn't change the fact that the risk assessments have been done. It's not that different than certain changes to maintenance regimes coming in now that covid has proved that they can be lengthened. I don't agree with that either for the record.

Signal_Box · 11 Jun 2022

Facing Back said:
Didnt the Scottish agreement recognise this explicitly? It doesnt help you directly but the prededent it there. Part of the rise to recognise flexibility and part to regcognise cost of living increases?

No idea I’m afraid, id assume the union made it crystal clear the measures where during a time of national emergency and only then.

alxndr said:
I know, and I agree that the circumstances are vastly different, however, it doesn't change the fact that the risk assessments have been done. It's not that different than certain changes to maintenance regimes coming in now that covid has proved that they can be lengthened. I don't agree with that either for the record.

I would put forward the “argument“ that during covid traffic was a fraction of what is it now, and those measures might of sped up the need for maintenance on certain sections and structures. Maintenance can take a holiday, but deterioration doesn’t.

Engineering work on strike days?

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