Mintona
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This is where I am (despite the fact I’ve not been balloted yet).
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Rail strikes discussion
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This is where I am (despite the fact I’ve not been balloted yet).
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Sleepy
Established Member
Many TOC's struggle with Sunday train crew cover at the best of times - with Shapps making silly comments like this fanning the flames it won't encourage volunteers !! I suspect many regular volunteers will take that Sunday off if not already rostered in to have weekend off (and before the Sunday should be compulsory working chorus starts my TOC rarely cancels Sunday services, the mix of those wanting to work zero Sundays and those that want to do many extra ones is very good)
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It all depends on the areas in question, if you look at LU / London commuter belt that has been the hardest hit with commuter traffic loses. Maybe reducing the frequency in the London area will help save costs, but go outside London things are very different.
This week in the north west & wales the trains were packed, just look on twitter to see trains full & standing.
This pattern will continue but sweeping cuts will not solve the problems.
I mentioned this last year on this very forum..... clearly the view from the inside has a lot of weight. Industrial action is going to run for a long time......I myself would be happy with every Saturday off. In effect, I would be working a 3 day week
The public sector is covered by (I think) 13 so-called independent pay review bodies PRBs. They are due to publish their pay findings any day now. Or perhaps the Tory govt want to co-ordinate a flat rate pay rise to all public sector works including the railways of 5%.
That’s my thinking on this there will be a uniform percentage increase there is no way the Govt will allow a higher rise for the rail network
I get the impression this may be the way forward. The initial week of disruption shows intent, but realistically, every Saturday off and loosing 2 to 3 days pay per month is a much easier long term sell to keep staff on side if this becomes as protracted as many of us fear it will.
That's right - many workforces have independent PRBs with reports over next few weeks - as an example they recommended a 3% increase for NHS last year which is what was given. I think most people would say that those awards are generally pretty fair and balanced.
I assume the likes of the RMT would not submit to a PRB as it would reduce their power somewhat. (Appreciate not really an option)
Personally I would support a US style "lockout" to force people to the table - right now there are no incentives to do a deal...the strikers are not suffering (unlike the public) and the Government has its own narrative.
Goldfish62
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I wasn't suggesting that cuts are required. I was merely pointing out that passenger numbers and revenue are both down overall. Some on this thread seem to be denying these basic facts. That's going into the realms of conspiracy theories.
Absolutely.
102 fan
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As someone who is fiancially out of pocket, flights and accommodation booked , whose plans to travel on that weekend are completely ruined, I wish he did strike occasionally.
Is it true his salary is a 6 figure amount?
Goldfish62
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Many of the lowest paid railway workers are probably already in in-work poverty. Do you think they'll just accept losing 2-3 days pay per month indefinitely if it means not being able to pay the rent / and/or feed the family?
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Degree of posturing to play to the right wing arm of the tories I suspect but behind the scenes a better offer will be made before the weeks out in attempt to get them to pull the strikes and return to the negotiating table.
Lemmy99uk
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According to the accounts the RMT lodged in 2020, the General Secretary’s remuneration package amounted to £163,468.
footprints
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And if a sustained period of Saturday strikes drives goodness knows how many hospitality and arts businesses to financial ruin, with all the job losses that would entail, that's just tough luck eh?
While it will obviously not be good for business, these firms tend not to have that large of a proportion of visitors using national rail services. The ones in central London will do if you also include London Underground but elsewhere people will just drive.
The time for volunteers has passed. Goodwill that is removed whenever the unions have an axe to grind (roughly every week).
The railway is unfit for purpose without Sundays in the contracted week.
Ample grounds there for mandatory restructuring.
One of the few RMT members who won't be out of pocket.
Nobody can explain why backbench MPs, many of whom do little work get paid £80k.
On weekends yes, and is still voluntary to work Sundays. That is why reform is needed.
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Kite159
Veteran Member
When they might not seem to do little work in parliament they might be good workers at dealing with various issues/queries raised by the people who voted them in. For some MPs, it isn't a 40 hour a week job. I think it was Dennis Skinner was according to reports was quite good at being a local MP, although he did little in parliament itself.
Although no doubt there are some who will do little work, and either ignores any letters/emails from the voters or replies back with rubbish not related to the query/issue raised. That Corbyn supporting lad who replaced Nick Clegg in one of the Sheffield seats springs to mind.
it’s not a lie. Passenger numbers are at about 80% of Pre covid. In the working week it’s nearer 70%; at the weekend 90-100%.
Not so. Subsidies were rather lower (nearly) 10 years ago. In 2014/15, Network Rail had a direct grant of £4.2bn, the TOCs paid a premium of £0.9bn; Net support of £3.1bn.
In 2019/20, the year before Covid struck, the respective figures are £6.6bn and £1.2bn subsidy, ie net support of £7.8bn. Therefore subsidy more than doubled in 5 years even before Covid.
That subsidy figure is simply not sustainable. Cuts are coming whether anyone likes it or not
As a 'somewhat knowledgeable layman', is it opening a massive can of worms to ask *why* the subsidy increased by so much in such a short time?
Was the railway of 2019 sufficiently 'better' than that of 2014 to justfy such an increase? As a passenger, it didn't feel all that much different.
A very large rise in costs came from various sources, but the largest ones were new train leases that were very expensive, high asset renewals costs, and general inflation. Real wages and employer pension contributions also increased a bit on average. Some specific operations required more staff. Real prices for diesel also increased.
To put it another way, better isn't quite the word. Some of it is things we're exposed to on global markets such as the price of fossil fuel, some of it is growing to increase supply such as higher frequency, and some of it is spend which had previously been put off that could be put off no longer, such as renewing signalling and replacing life expired rolling stock.
I would also argue that it did feel very different in 2019 to five years prior as rather a lot of capital works were completed. In theory these should bring costs down again long term as their operational benefits last a long time after their capital expenditure but as with everything it needs economies of scale to work. To choose a small handful of the high-impact examples, the modern layouts in the areas around Stafford, Derby and Banbury, or Glasgow Queen Street, London Kings Cross and Cardiff Central are smoother, quicker and more flexible than the ones there previously.
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43096
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Any ideas on what revenue from passengers was for those two years?
2021_Signaller
Member
As I said these are not the actions of a confident and competent government, lashing out at railway workers by legally and democratically voting to strike based on government proposals for the industry. In addition, these threats of a plague of locusts on us is all hot air. There's no chance they have the stomach for any of that. They simply don't have the time with their legislative agenda to be debating strike action when there is the prospect of a trade war, inflation through the roof and an energy crisis. The more they threaten the more determined I will be to strike again because it shows they don't understand the consequences of what they are doing (which is even more alarming).
I did not start a new career, spend 6 months training to be a signaller for it to be wrecked in one fell swoop by idiots that know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. There are serious safety risks at stake for an industry which is currently the safest way to travel in the UK.
These strikes aren't political, but there is a determination by government to make them political. To try and make a suffering public take aim at the strikers rather than the government, but it will fail.
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Im sure that if an adequate restructuring package is offered most people would take it up.
It won’t be forced on staff whether anybody likes it or not.
I don’t think the TOC’s want Sundays in the working week, they are struggle to train people up at the minute without having to have the establishment figures increased.
I wasn’t expecting those kind of figures.
The real reason is that it’s cheaper to operate a Sunday service using overtime as opposed to hiring an adequate amount of staff and paying all of the associated costs of a larger workforce.
that subsidy figure was Pre-Covid…
I should have credited the figures, which are from a piece Roger Ford did in the May Modern Railways. There’s an excellent analysis of the cost drivers there. (Apologies Cap’n if you are reading).
For clarity these are Pre Covid figures.
There was then a further, significant, increase in subsidy in the financial year 2020/21, to £17bn; the increase being mostly due to the loss of nearly £9bn in revenue, but also partly because costs increased compared to the previous year (despite running a reduced timetable).
The numbers aren’t out for 2021/22, but you can expect subsidy to be in the region of £13-14bn.
For the current year, if trends continue, the subsidy will be about £10-12bn, and stay there pending either further cost reductions on top of what has already been delivered / promised, or additional revenue ahead of forecasts. I will stress, again, that the revenue forecasts have been remarkably accurate so far.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That’s not going to happen. The railway isn’t so relevant that weekend strikes will sink businesses. You can do whatever you like to the discretionary traveller, it doesn’t make a ripple at the very top of the political arena.
according to Roger Ford:
2014/15 £8.8bn
2019/20 £10.2bn
for comparison…
2020/21 £1.8bn
none of these are adjusted for inflation.
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