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"Covid rising in England" - let's stop the fear mongering

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ainsworth74

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Time to move on and treat it the same as colds/flu etc
So continue reporting the numbers like we do for the flu? ;)


Again by all means it shouldn't be near the top of any news bulletins but I think it's iffy to suggest that we just shouldn't have any data whatsoever and that data shouldn't be public. We'd just end up with a different group of conspiracy theorists asking us "and what are else are they hiding!?!" or perhaps even some of the same conspiracy theorists flipping conspiracies! :lol:
 
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So continue reporting the numbers like we do for the flu? ;)


Again by all means it shouldn't be near the top of any news bulletins but I think it's iffy to suggest that we just shouldn't have any data whatsoever and that data shouldn't be public. We'd just end up with a different group of conspiracy theorists asking us "and what are else are they hiding!?!" or perhaps even some of the same conspiracy theorists flipping conspiracies! :lol:
I should have probably quoted better (quick lunchtime job) - I was mainly referring to the dashboard - the data is now so sporadic its usefulness has significantly diminished
 

kristiang85

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Glad to see that the conspiracy theorists views of events are still going strong!

If this is in reference to the media ,then it is as clear as day, as this gaffe from CNN showed... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/cnn-director-admits-pushing-covid-panic-using-death-tracker

“COVID? Gangbusters with ratings, right? Which is why we constantly have the death toll on the side … Let’s make it higher,” CNN technical director Charlie Chester told an undercover journalist, according to the political action group Project Veritas.

“It's fear. Fear really drives numbers [TV ratings] … Fear is the thing that keeps you tuned in,” Chester added.

Chester seemed aware that what he was saying was controversial, acknowledging that “no one ever says these things out loud.” Chester also declared there is “no such thing as unbiased news” and that it “doesn’t exist.”

The conversation between Chester and the undercover journalist includes the CNN staffer recalling a situation where the “special red phone” would ring, and on the other end of the line, network President Jeff Zucker would instruct the network to “put the [COVID death toll] numbers back up” because “that’s the most enticing thing we had.”
 

kez19

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If this is in reference to the media ,then it is as clear as day, as this gaffe from CNN showed... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/cnn-director-admits-pushing-covid-panic-using-death-tracker

Why does this make me think of the film rollerball? Players get injured/killed the producers keep it rolling/ratings go up? (OK different take but the way media is over reacting with one subject and another and another recently it makes you wonder)?

Seems to be CNN has been caught out stateside (a bit ironic that people call out Fox News isn’t this another one of those double standards?)
 

kristiang85

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Why does this make me think of the film rollerball? Players get injured/killed the producers keep it rolling/ratings go up? (OK different take but the way media is over reacting with one subject and another and another recently it makes you wonder)?

Seems to be CNN has been caught out stateside (a bit ironic that people call out Fox News isn’t this another one of those double standards?)

It is pretty obvious though that the media here have operated the same way, they just haven't been so blatent about admitting it.
 

bramling

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It's the inducement of panic by the media, doubtless for profit motivation, every time Covid cases rise (which they are bound to from time to time) which I think is unacceptable.

As @yorkie and others say, the cases are going to rise and fall regularly. Unless we get a high rate of serious illness and death, it's time to drop the panic and the fear.

It will do people's psychology no good and it will do our fragile economy no good.

Yes both these factors need to take priority now.

It will do people no good to live through another autumn / winter period where there’s a constant focus on Covid cases, which are of course bound to go up and down. Likewise businesses need the assurance that there’s absolutely not going to be some pre-Christmas scare like we had last year, it doesn’t help that Johnson’s word counts for zero on that.
 
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Moreover, am I right in thinking that FFP2/3 masks only filter inhalation, not exhalation (thus rendering even these useless at protecting aneone but the wearer)?
Depends on the mask. The bit that seems to get lost is that PPE is generally only intended to protect the wearer from a hazard it's not for collective protection. RPE (Respiratory Protective Equipment) is almost entirely used to protect the wearer from an external hazard ie dust, solvents, biohazard etc. Most industrial RPE has an exhalation vent as this makes them much more comfortable to wear for extended periods. If you want RPE to offer protection both ways then unvented is the only option (most FFP2 I've seen is unvented but a lot of FFP3 is vented as they are a bit onerous to wear otherwise.
From recent experience in Italy a decent unvented FFP2 mask was actually pretty comfortable -
 

nw1

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Yes both these factors need to take priority now.

It will do people no good to live through another autumn / winter period where there’s a constant focus on Covid cases, which are of course bound to go up and down. Likewise businesses need the assurance that there’s absolutely not going to be some pre-Christmas scare like we had last year, it doesn’t help that Johnson’s word counts for zero on that.

Cynically, of course, focus on Covid (something the government cannot be blamed for) might detract from focus on the economy (which perhaps they can). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Johnson tries that tactic.

Going really cynical, one wonders if Johnson could surreptitiously pump up the fear with one hand, while reassuring people that there will be no return of hard restrictions with the other. Certainly could work as a popularity-boosting strategy.
 
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jumble

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I work for a well known supermarket. When the first lockdown came, people would come into the store maskless. We had no powers to enforce the rules and most people said they were exempt from mask wearing, a few had lanyards on that said they were exempt but these were being sold on ebay and facebooks groups. It annoyed me when customers would say "I don't like wearing them", well tough titties, try wearing one for an 8 hour shift rather than a 20 minute shop, I wore a mask to try and prevent me from taking this awful virus home and protect the people I love. Even though I was wearing a mask at work and using hand sanitizer like it was going out of fashion, I still contracted Covid in Dec 2020. I didn't go anywhere apart from work at the time, so I knew I had caught it there. It was a scary time for us all. When masks were optional, I still wore a mask at work and still do today. I have had my 2 jabs and my booster but yet again contracted Covid in March this year, again from work. What people don't realise is I'm wearing a mask to protect them, not me. I know not everyone likes wearing a mask but at the end of the day, no one knew the impact of Covid, or how many of us were going to die.
May I ask how severe your 2 cases of covid were. ( especially the case in March this year )
The reason I ask is that many people do not seem to understand that by and large Alpha/Delta could be very nasty and Omicrion is far far less of a problem and most people are now vaccinated in any case
 

Eyersey468

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Cynically, of course, focus on Covid (something the government cannot be blamed for) might detract from focus on the economy (which perhaps they can). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Johnson tries that tactic.

Going really cynical, one wonders if Johnson could surreptitiously pump up the fear with one hand, while reassuring people that there will be no return of hard restrictions with the other. Certainly could work as a popularity-boosting strategy.
His word means nothing.
 

MikeWM

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Cynically, of course, focus on Covid (something the government cannot be blamed for) might detract from focus on the economy (which perhaps they can). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Johnson tries that tactic.

I don't think that will work though, because for whatever reason Covid became a political issue, and the government *is* bizarrely blamed for it by many people. If I venture back to some of the more left-leaning places on the internet I used to frequent, they are consistently littered with paragraphs blaming Johnson for the death of 180,000 people, or similar nonsense.

I've made this point before, but no-one blames Lloyd George for people dying from the 'Spanish' flu, or Harold Wilson for the 'Hong Kong' flu. Blaming a government for people dying in a pandemic is utterly bizarre and a very recent idea, in an era when the people for some reason appear to expect the government to do everything, solve everything, and interfere in everything.

Now, the decisions made to 'fight' the pandemic *are* things we can blame the government for, from the discharge of patients from hospitals into care homes, the disregard of all other health problems during lockdown, the 'collateral' mental and physical harms caused by lockdown itself, the economic damage, etc. etc. But I suspect the government will be keen to sweep all that under the carpet (or blame Russia, or anything other than themselves) and hope we forget about them .

Going really cynical, one wonders if Johnson could surreptitiously pump up the fear with one hand, while reassuring people that there will be no return of hard restrictions with the other. Certainly could work as a popularity-boosting strategy.

I think most people are rather fed up with the fear strategy at this point. Fortunately, it is unlikely to be remotely as effective as it was two years ago.
 

greyman42

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Going really cynical, one wonders if Johnson could surreptitiously pump up the fear with one hand, while reassuring people that there will be no return of hard restrictions with the other.
There must never be a return of ANY restrictions, hard or otherwise, for viruses such as covid.
For an outbreak of Ebola, restrictions would be justified.
 

Mikw

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I don't think that will work though, because for whatever reason Covid became a political issue, and the government *is* bizarrely blamed for it by many people. If I venture back to some of the more left-leaning places on the internet I used to frequent, they are consistently littered with paragraphs blaming Johnson for the death of 180,000 people, or similar nonsense.

I've made this point before, but no-one blames Lloyd George for people dying from the 'Spanish' flu, or Harold Wilson for the 'Hong Kong' flu. Blaming a government for people dying in a pandemic is utterly bizarre and a very recent idea, in an era when the people for some reason appear to expect the government to do everything, solve everything, and interfere in everything.

Now, the decisions made to 'fight' the pandemic *are* things we can blame the government for, from the discharge of patients from hospitals into care homes, the disregard of all other health problems during lockdown, the 'collateral' mental and physical harms caused by lockdown itself, the economic damage, etc. etc. But I suspect the government will be keen to sweep all that under the carpet (or blame Russia, or anything other than themselves) and hope we forget about them .



I think most people are rather fed up with the fear strategy at this point. Fortunately, it is unlikely to be remotely as effective as it was two years ago.
To be fair Boris didn't really help with PPE "fast lane" shambles, being late to lockdown and submitting it only after Macron phoned him up, and "shaking hands with everyone" comments.
 

yorkie

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Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh and wrote a balanced view yesterday https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/13/rise-covid-cases-what-we-know-so-far which includes medical-grade masks and ventilation as still important measures we can take [a small part of the larger piece, do read it all for context].
She's changed her minds several times on various issues.

I'd like to understand what she means by "beat this"; talk of "beating" a virus really is nonsense! If people are saying that vaccinating people will "beat" a pandemic through providing our immune systems with the means to fight the virus, then yes I can see it in that context.

But given we've vaccinated over 93% of the population, we are well past that stage; such language is unhelpful and misleading because the only way the pandemic can be deemed to "end" is by reaching endemic equilibrium. The only way to reach that equilibrium is for people to be exposed to the virus.

She talks of a "new wave" in a manner that suggests we should be fearful or that it is unexpected or can be avoided; these assertions are all false. Every year we get new "waves" of many common respiriatory viruses, which act as boosters when we are exposed to these common viruses to which we already have immunity. This is no longer a novel virus but a virus our immune systems are already familiar with to some extent. Our immunty to it needs to continue to increase, just as happened with many other viruses which previously jumped to humans.

Her reference to "herd immunity" is irrelevant; the endgame is endemic equilibrium. She chooses not to state this in her article; I wonder why?

She makes the claim that it would be "better" to "avoid getting Covid-19"; but as stated earlier, the original symptoms termed Covid 19 are no longer applicable except in an absolutely tiny proportion of cases and we have moved on. Furthermore, it is not possible to "avoid" exposure to Sars-CoV-2; the idea that we should wear masks in order to prevent exposure to Sars-CoV-2 (or "getting Covid 19 as she erroneously calls it) is absurd and deeply flawed.

When she refers to "medical grade masks" she must mean at least an FFP2/3 respirator, but by using language that is open to interpretation, people may think that flimsy, loose fitting masks will do the job, which they certainly won't. The article then improves when she argues reasons against using such masks; at least that's an improvement compared to her previous rants.

She then goes on to argue for boosters for all; has she done a cost benefit analysis? Why would a non vulnerable, non elderly person need a booster anyway? The data just isn't there to support it. xLeading virologists and immunologists that I've listened to are of the view that once you have 3 doses of vaccine, you should be good for some considerable time, and that natural exposure to the virus will act as a booster, just as is already the case for many other respiriatory viruses.

Having read the article, it really isn't advocating masks. It appears to be stating that FFP2/3 respirators can be effective (which is true) but then argues against their widespread use, which I agree with. The article is very muddled and wooly and doesn't really have any substance. Does she get paid to write these articles?
 

MikeWM

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To be fair Boris didn't really help with PPE "fast lane" shambles,

Yes, agreed. Plus all the problems in inadequate preparedness, which can be laid firmly at Jeremy Hunt's door, which we've all conveniently forgotten about now that some in the media are keen for him to be the next Tory leader.

being late to lockdown and submitting it only after Macron phoned him up,

No. He started right but then went wrong - we should never have locked down at all. See Sweden. More than enough studies now showing what some of us predicted all along - the harms of lockdowns vastly outweigh whatever good they may do.

and "shaking hands with everyone" comments.

I'm indifferent on this - I can work out what is a good idea or not to do in a pandemic myself without being influenced by flippant remarks from politicians who aren't exactly being serious at the best of times. I shook no more or less hands as a result of that remark.
 

kristiang85

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There must never be a return of ANY restrictions, hard or otherwise, for viruses such as covid.
For an outbreak of Ebola, restrictions would be justified.

To be honest, if there was an outbreak of Ebola or a disease with similar characteristics/mortalty, heavy-handed restrictions wouldn't be needed in the main becasue people would naturally follow advice to the letter because it would be blooming scary.

The reason why COVID restrictions and laws had to be so strict was because it wasn't actually that scary to many, and it is becoming more and more apparent that they were completely over the top. As you say, it must never, ever happen again.
 

Eyersey468

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To be honest, if there was an outbreak of Ebola or a disease with similar characteristics/mortalty, heavy-handed restrictions wouldn't be needed in the main becasue people would naturally follow advice to the letter because it would be blooming scary.

The reason why COVID restrictions and laws had to be so strict was because it wasn't actually that scary to many, and it is becoming more and more apparent that they were completely over the top. As you say, it must never, ever happen again.
That's probably why the messaging from both the government and the media was so appalling as well. Agree it must never happen again.
 

MikeWM

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To be honest, if there was an outbreak of Ebola or a disease with similar characteristics/mortalty, heavy-handed restrictions wouldn't be needed in the main becasue people would naturally follow advice to the letter because it would be blooming scary.

The reason why COVID restrictions and laws had to be so strict was because it wasn't actually that scary to many, and it is becoming more and more apparent that they were completely over the top. As you say, it must never, ever happen again.

*Exactly* this, yes!
 

kez19

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She's changed her minds several times on various issues.

I'd like to understand what she means by "beat this"; talk of "beating" a virus really is nonsense! If people are saying that vaccinating people will "beat" a pandemic through providing our immune systems with the means to fight the virus, then yes I can see it in that context.

But given we've vaccinated over 93% of the population, we are well past that stage; such language is unhelpful and misleading because the only way the pandemic can be deemed to "end" is by reaching endemic equilibrium. The only way to reach that equilibrium is for people to be exposed to the virus.

She talks of a "new wave" in a manner that suggests we should be fearful or that it is unexpected or can be avoided; these assertions are all false. Every year we get new "waves" of many common respiriatory viruses, which act as boosters when we are exposed to these common viruses to which we already have immunity. This is no longer a novel virus but a virus our immune systems are already familiar with to some extent. Our immunty to it needs to continue to increase, just as happened with many other viruses which previously jumped to humans.

Her reference to "herd immunity" is irrelevant; the endgame is endemic equilibrium. She chooses not to state this in her article; I wonder why?

She makes the claim that it would be "better" to "avoid getting Covid-19"; but as stated earlier, the original symptoms termed Covid 19 are no longer applicable except in an absolutely tiny proportion of cases and we have moved on. Furthermore, it is not possible to "avoid" exposure to Sars-CoV-2; the idea that we should wear masks in order to prevent exposure to Sars-CoV-2 (or "getting Covid 19 as she erroneously calls it) is absurd and deeply flawed.

When she refers to "medical grade masks" she must mean at least an FFP2/3 respirator, but by using language that is open to interpretation, people may think that flimsy, loose fitting masks will do the job, which they certainly won't. The article then improves when she argues reasons against using such masks; at least that's an improvement compared to her previous rants.

She then goes on to argue for boosters for all; has she done a cost benefit analysis? Why would a non vulnerable, non elderly person need a booster anyway? The data just isn't there to support it. xLeading virologists and immunologists that I've listened to are of the view that once you have 3 doses of vaccine, you should be good for some considerable time, and that natural exposure to the virus will act as a booster, just as is already the case for many other respiriatory viruses.

Having read the article, it really isn't advocating masks. It appears to be stating that FFP2/3 respirators can be effective (which is true) but then argues against their widespread use, which I agree with. The article is very muddled and wooly and doesn't really have any substance. Does she get paid to write these articles?


The cynical in me wonders as she has written a book on a COVID called “preventable” for 20 quid…

Again cynical but she has been the go to person in the media too…

Finally other point yes she changes her mind more often than someone who flips burgers!

Oh just to add wasn’t she the one blaming the English and the whole border thing for the SNP? I thought it was her! (sarcastic here), she was the one who said Scotland could beat COVID couple summers ago… again why are we even listening to her? She is as bad as Ferguson and that SAGE lot!
 

yorksrob

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The cynical in me wonders as she has written a book on a COVID called “preventable” for 20 quid…

Again cynical but she has been the go to person in the media too…

Finally other point yes she changes her mind more often than someone who flips burgers!

Oh just to add wasn’t she the one blaming the English and the whole border thing for the SNP? I thought it was her! (sarcastic here), she was the one who said Scotland could beat COVID couple summers ago… again why are we even listening to her? She is as bad as Ferguson and that SAGE lot!

The fact that anyone would choose to pay twenty pounds for a book picking over the carcass of the last two years, also amazes me.
 

kez19

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The fact that anyone would choose to pay twenty pounds for a book picking over the carcass of the last two years, also amazes me.

I’m surprised the BBC hasn’t given her a spot on breakfast tv (I’m led to believe Linda Bauld appears)
 

GC class B1

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Linda Bauld appears on BBC on Saturday mornings. She used to be advocating masks and restrictions but also on the slot is Chris smith a virologist from Cambridge. He was realistic and a few months ago said we shouldn’t be too concerned with Omicron and since then Linda has been muted in her comments. They have now moved on from covid to other medical issues so the BBC breakfast slot is now not scaremongering.
 

railfan99

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In Australia, the median age of death "from COVID" is 83. (Unsure whether this is really individuals who die 'of COVID' rather than just 'with COVID but also comorbidities').

What is it in the UK?
 

Eyersey468

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In Australia, the median age of death "from COVID" is 83. (Unsure whether this is really individuals who die 'of COVID' rather than just 'with COVID but also comorbidities').

What is it in the UK?
I'm not sure exactly but would imagine it will be similar
 

kristiang85

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I seem to remember reading 82, but not sure how official that was and when it was measured.
 

kez19

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Linda Bauld appears on BBC on Saturday mornings. She used to be advocating masks and restrictions but also on the slot is Chris smith a virologist from Cambridge. He was realistic and a few months ago said we shouldn’t be too concerned with Omicron and since then Linda has been muted in her comments. They have now moved on from covid to other medical issues so the BBC breakfast slot is now not scaremongering.

Oh that’s good so they talk on other subjects (not that I watch it), but impression I got was being a COVID slot
 
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