That was a response to @Mainline421's comment about giving (presumably all) through tickets break of journey validity. I assumed that the TfL cut from a 'maltese cross' ticket is less than that for a full zone one Travelcard where multiple journeys could be expected. A through ticket with a connecting TfL need only be priced for a single passtbrpugh validity. A passenger expecting to do a bit of shopping maybe also meeting somebody for lunch before continuing their journey would find a full zone 1 ticket more appropriate.
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Elizabeth line ticketing
- Thread starter miklcct
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The problem is this will represent massive price increases for leisure travel as super off peak tickets will end up being withdrawn as contactless only appears to support Anytime and Off Peak pricing.
Could you give us a link that confirms the assertion that the NR contactless implementation will simply be a lift and drop of the existing TfL version?
Let's have a look at what's already happened at Brookmans Park and Hertford East with the extension of contactless. Brookmans Park is particularly relevent as it's contactless only and is in the Transport Secretary's constituency. To be fair we will probably get a rail card solution (but I doubt it will extend to Network Railcards).
Potters Bar and Brookmans Park Fare Observations
Sorry if this should probably go in an existing thread, but I didn't want to hijack any discussions. I looked into how this affects the market for someone who travels from this area to London during weekday off-peak, returns on a different day and is happy to avoid zone 1 if the journey is...
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March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed
* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey. Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...
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You keep on referring to multiple journeys, but if TfL accepted that BoJ is permitted, this would simply allow you to travel from (say) Ealing Broadway to Tottenham Court Road, then to Abbey Wood, then back again. It wouldn't allow you to shuttle back and forth in the Core. Hence why I cannot see that it presents any palpable revenue risk, any more so than it does for BoJ to be permitted on Thameslink for instance.
Indeed.
I can currently buy a ticket from Keighley to Leeds and stop off at Bingley, Saltaire and Shipley on the way. I don't often do all three, but I could.
I'm sure Northern would love me to buy four tickets for that, but they don't get to overrule the conditions of the ticket.
miklcct
On Moderation
I can currently buy a ticket from Hendon to Woodgrange Park (routed Gospel Oak) to stop off at Stratford and Forest Gate on the way, and stop at Walthamstow Queen Road, Gospel Oak and Cricklewood on the way back.
I'm sure TfL would love me to buy a Travelcard for that, but they don't get to overrule the conditions of the ticket.
All these anecdotal examples of urban routes where break of journey might be possible are all very interesting, but the Lizzie between Liverpool St and Paddington is quite different in as much as it is in zone 1, a prime route for visitors to the capital and unlike all the others, is promoted by TfL as an alternative to the tube. Can journeys on zone 1 tube links between London terminals include multiple breaks of journey?
Thameslink, although functionally similar, hardly presents visitors to London such a useful link to hop between attractions, and it is much shorter.
Thameslink, although functionally similar, hardly presents visitors to London such a useful link to hop between attractions, and it is much shorter.
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He didn't say it was. It's an alternative to one.
Then why does it have to have the same ticketing rules?
Why can't it have the same rules as every other National Rail line?
Don't get me wrong, I'm as frustrated as the next person over this, but ...
Anyone travelling between Paddington* or Liverpool Street* and Blackfriars (thus most of South London), Kings Cross, St Pancras, Euston (walk from St Pancras) and Moorgate now has a NR only route whereas previously they had to use the Underground, and in most cases pay for that. If all those journeys resulted in a loss to TfL then their financial position would be even more precarious than it is now.
*I know that PAYG fares within zones 1-9 do not charge extra for Underground via the two end terminals, but come from further out and they do.
Surely they will start getting revenue for the Elizabeth Line as part of the normal itineraies from ORCATS now? Although it might not be the same amount
Haywain
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Who do you mean will start getting revenue?
Doubt that to be honest, as example of Farrindon or Whitechapel from Southeastern has been marked an other NR station like City Thameslink or Surrey Quays to avoid the usage of EZL
TfL have cherry picked what they like ticketing wise. So for some elements, you can use an All Line Rover, but you can't buy a point to point paper ticket on the core section. Delay Repay is the same rules as London Overground and presumably other London commuter belt TOCs where you can only claim after a 30 minute delay, while on LUL it's 15 minutes, yet they charge TfL and mixed mode fares for using what is a NR line.
I get all the reasons why it's a revenue issue for TfL and they really need it right now, but if that's the case, why haven't TfL axed point to point paper tickets on the East London Line core or NR Oyster and Contactless fares from NR TOC stations not served by the Overground?
I get all the reasons why it's a revenue issue for TfL and they really need it right now, but if that's the case, why haven't TfL axed point to point paper tickets on the East London Line core or NR Oyster and Contactless fares from NR TOC stations not served by the Overground?
They possibly aren't allowed to.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying withdraw PAYG fares from any station not served by TfL? How would that work given that TfL have been contracted by the DfT to provide contactless PAYG for the wider south-east area?
What I mean is that for example if you travel from Blackheath, A Southeastern station to Shoreditch High Street, which is a core ELL station via New Cross, it'll be treated as a NR fare, regardless of whether the line is operated by TfL or not. Where as Erith to Tottenham Court Road which is on the Lizzy core section is treated as mixed mode despite the line being no different to the ELL core where it's a National Rail service which uses NR signals but both sections of infrastructure are owned by TfL.
If it's mixed mode for one line, then going by the Elizabeth line ticketing 'logic', the other should also be treated as a mixed mode fare.
ThisIsSurbiton
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I think the concept of mixed-mode is a nonsense anyway. They're all trains, the organisational structure of it all shouldn't matter to the passenger. Why not charge all rail journeys on the same scale? This doesn't mean they have to be at the lowest rate, the change could be neutral if required (and I'm sure it would be). While we're at it, move the 'LU-NR' boundary of the Elizabeth line to Liverpool Street, treat Thameslink the same through the core and things become a lot simpler. Some fares would go up, but I feel there's no justification for them to be different now.
I entirely agree. They've not even bothered doing it in a way that's consistent. They've just done what suits them best and will earn them the most revenue.
I know they are struggling financially, but frankly, if they faced a class action claim for their brazen policy of overcharging and acting in breach of contract... I would be very happy. Perhaps that will be coming down the line in a few years, as with the Boundary Zone and GTR claims!
I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to do so, any more than they are allowed to unilaterally decide that they're treating the EL Core as not part of the National Rail network.
I think @bicbasher means that they could decide the fare scale is LU rather than LO-XR. Meaning that there would be a 'mixed mode tax' for any journeys involving NR, as there is on the XR core.
It’s done to guarantee the income the formerly private operators were due. It’s moot now, but DfT is keen to prevent changes as it would be revenue negative to them. There are some silly rules like this that can lead to thinking TfL are irrational.
Is that true re commuter belt TOCs? It is 15 minutes on Thameslink.
... and the rest of GTR, LNWR, SWR, South Eastern, Chiltern.... In fact all TOCs other than LO so no it is not true.
That's not quite correct. The following TOCs don't have 15 minute Delay Repay:
- CS - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
- ES - 1 hour 25%, 2 hours 50%
- GC - 1 hour 50%, 2 hours 75%, 3 hours 100%
- GR - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
- HT - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
- LD - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
- LO/XR - 30 mins 100% (fault), 1 hour 50% (non-fault)
- ME - 30 mins 20%, 1 hour 50% (non-fault)
- SR - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
- XC - 30 mins 50%, 1 hour 100%
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Fair comment, perhaps l should have said DfT concession operating TOCs.
miklcct
On Moderation
XC also doesn't have 15 minute Delay Repay.
Yes, all DfT "franchised" operators except XC now have DR15.
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I didn't know some other DfT TOCs have 15 minute Delay Repay limits, but the point stands that the oddities that TfL treat the ELL core and the XR core for ticketing and Delay Repay compensation is odd considering that both core line sections have smaller gaps between services than some sections of the Underground, yet if I get delayed on those sections in the core, I'll have to wait half an hour before I can make a claim on a very high frequency section of a line.
londonbridge
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So, todays travel:
Bus journey x 1, £1.65
Touch in at Heathrow Terminal 5 rail station, Elizabeth line to Paddington, touch out.
Touch back in, Paddington-Farringdon on Elizabeth line, then walk to Thameslink platform and train to East Croydon, without touching out and back in at Farringdon…£12.45……how do they work that fare out??
Bus journey x 1, £1.65
Touch in at Heathrow Terminal 5 rail station, Elizabeth line to Paddington, touch out.
Touch back in, Paddington-Farringdon on Elizabeth line, then walk to Thameslink platform and train to East Croydon, without touching out and back in at Farringdon…£12.45……how do they work that fare out??
The TfL single fare finder shows Heathrow T5 Rail to East Croydon as £13.30.
The bus journey £1.65 previously added to the Z1-6 cap (£14.10) so your T5 to East Croydon journey was capped to £12.45 instead of the full £13.30.
Your journeys were charged correctly.
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