What specifically have I said that you disagree with? Can you quote it?
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Rail strikes discussion
- Thread starter Cowley
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What specifically have I said that you disagree with? Can you quote it?
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RailUK Forums
Your not continuing because your wrong. He is right, swapping is not a right, its a favour. I've done swaps previously - given nice early AR turns for night jobs (had to swap all week instead of the 2 day as would break hidden) because I wanted to do a favour but in the end I didn't benefit from it and then that person took overtime on Sunday morning reliving me on nights. If I hadn't had swapped I would have done that overtime so yeah it's not something I'd probably do again.
Newone2022
Member
Apologies, I rephrase as I quoted you incorrectly. However, I am not assuming, there are plenty of other replies on the post that state that some people will refuse swaps with other colleagues based on their views or orientations on this. I find that discriminatory.
So what do you say now, if someone refuses to swap shifts with you ? Any decision to swap or not is by its nature, discriminatory.
Newone2022
Member
Even unwilling to carry on, that’s not what I am talking about. What has been said is that some people would refuse swaps with others based purely on their views or opinions. I find that discriminatory.
Think you need to research what discrimination is?
windingroad
Member
- Joined
- 16 Jun 2022
- Messages
- 234
What does "take my choices individually" actually mean in the context of pay and conditions? You've already said you want a fair deal to be reached and you would accept it, but that deal is reached through collective action. Essentially you are communicating implicitly to your colleagues that you are happy to accept the fruits of industrial action, but refuse to make any sacrifice whatsoever of your own because you find it distasteful. It is unsurprising many find that objectionable.
You've already said you would accept a pay deal, so this doesn't hold water. It feels a bit disingenuous to claim high principles prevent you from striking and then grant yourself an exemption from those principles when it benefits you. This might be unfair, and if it is I apologise, but it really seems like you're quite happy to accept the benefits others are fighting for and simply unwilling to get your hands dirty.
Personally, as long as you weren't unpleasant to work with, I'd treat you like anyone else if I was your colleague. I can completely understand, however, why many people would not, other than remaining professional. I am not unionised, and I don't work on the railway, but I am much less likely to proactively help out a colleague who is unpleasant, difficult to work with, or selfish. Is that discrimination?
If you end up being treated differently, it's not because of some innate "orientation" as you suggest. It's because they find your behaviour morally unacceptable and don't wish to align themselves with it. You may disagree with that (as some people in this very thread do) but there's no escaping that reality, and so far you haven't articulated an alternative moral view.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Then the industry needs a firework up its bottom and a slap across the face.
Yes I would like an explanation how compromising safety is a good idea
Then if that's the case be a lot of services not running around the country especially on Sunday's as in my grade in my company and quite a few companies certain days of the week are outside of the working week and its classed as overtime
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Newone2022
Member
When I say “individually” I mean that I am not forced to support something I disagree with. That is why I did not join the union. In this case and given the overall reality (drop of customers and revenue, pandemic funding, etc) I find demands from RMT just as unrealistic as the government that is why I do not want to align. As much as I am honest when I say that I would be happy to accept a considerably lower deal that the unions are fighting for, can’t deny the fact that accepting then a better deal that others have sacrificed for and I chose not to, has no moral grounds and that is something I will need to work my head around (as I said, I have not decided what to do yet and that is my goal with all this stuff) It’s not the same for me to go on strike because some people are sacrificing for the likes of myself and that is a very valid point, that because, otherwise, I will be bullied by others, as that makes you think “should I really care what those people think or do?” and gives you even more reason to stand against them, in some way.
The Waterloo guard who posted earlier, his colleagues will likely have a massive problem with it. That’s the simple fact of the matter - you know that when you join this industry! You might not like that but it doesn’t change it. It isn’t you the strike breakers will be wanting to swap shifts with…
This kind of behaviour wether from yourselves or others is what I was talking about.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The safety of the transport system as a whole should be considered. Rail is nearly 100% safe - no passenger deaths in 10+ years is the norm. But road is very unsafe - deaths occur daily. Thus, making rail cheaper, more capacious and accessible for a wider range of journeys so as to reduce travel by road is going to save more lives and injuries than spending a fortune making rail a tiny bit safer.
Staff safety is a bit different - as such I'd say it might be justified to withdraw HSTs because the cab is less safe than it could be, but not because of the crashworthiness of the Mk3s for the passengers. (The guard is obviously a bit of an overlap here).
In some ways yes, but I think that’d require far more lower & middle management to up their game considerably, as opposed to a tendency to sit back quietly & allow Union reps to effectively run almost the entire show on their behalf.
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Some of the opinions on this thread are idiotic - someone not wanting to shift swap (and it doesn't matter WHY they don't want to do it) is now "discrimination" against the person who wants the swap? Any moans to managers of that sort would result in a short "work your booked turn or attempt to book leave" conversation.
jettofab
Member
I suppose you might need to reframe what you view as discrimination - you want the freedom to act differently than your colleagues and don't support them morally, which is fine. But your choice not to strike makes their task more difficult and you're OK with that because of your conscience. If in the future they are less keen to give you swaps that you need is it really that different? Their conscience would be what is guiding their behaviour, same as yours. You absolutely shouldn't be bullied - called names, be ignored etc but I don't think colleagues being unwilling to help you when you're asking them for a favour counts as bullying. It sounds a little as though you want to have your cake and eat it.
Newone2022
Member
That is fair view, I must admit.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Was the overtime Grant Shapps proposed banning not simply on each day immediately after a strike day ? Still a vindictive and provocative move, but not the same as banning all overtime or RDW.
HST274
Member
Is stopping all overtime and rdw also mandated by the unions or only suggested? Would the backlash be the same as 'scabbing?
You might want to consider technologies like Zoom.
windingroad
Member
- Joined
- 16 Jun 2022
- Messages
- 234
I have considered it: the switch to leisure travel becoming the likely driving force for rail growth was discussed by myself and others in subsequent posts.
Although I have a different view to you when it comes to the strike, you do seem to be approaching this in a self-aware way, so best of luck with whatever choice you make.
spyinthesky
Member
What I tend to hear from this thread is a lot about the democratic right, respect and solidarity but only in that it doesn’t apply to those who wish not to join a union.
Does anyone believe that 11% is in any way realistic? Negotiations are needed but this isn’t a North African street market.
I am not in a union or the industry and my political bias does swing between red and blue, not yellow or green.
Does anyone believe that 11% is in any way realistic? Negotiations are needed but this isn’t a North African street market.
I am not in a union or the industry and my political bias does swing between red and blue, not yellow or green.
Rambler2978
Member
Driving in reverse is already happening at Paddington on the new Elizabeth line!Next the Daily Mail will ask why do we have ‘changing end’ times
Can’t we just drive in reverse ?
HL7
Member
There’s a bizarre lack of self awareness in some of these posts.
Regardless of how anyone views the reasoning of the upcoming strikes I’m sure we can all agree that the vast majority of people involved in the industrial action will frown on any of their colleagues who choose to work through the strike.
To think that your colleagues will be willing to assist you with swaps of turns or annual leave is either naivety or arrogance.
Falcon1200
Established Member
As a matter of interest, do employers even necessarily know nowadays who is actually in a Trade Union, and if so, which one ? I ask because I recall, many years ago now, Union membership no longer being available via deductions from pay, ie handled by the employer, but via Direct Debit instead, so unknown to them.
HL7
Member
My Aslef membership payment is shown as a deduction on my payslip. I’ve never checked or asked whether it’s deducted before or after tax though.
Employers have no formal way of knowing who is or isn't in a union and members do not have to disclose this information.
That said, in many railway grades union membership is extremely high, to the point that companies will treat everyone as being a member of that grades predominant union as the default position.
Falcon1200
Established Member
My TSSA membership was too, until the practice was stopped; I cannot recall whether this was perhaps a retaliatory reaction by Railtrack to industrial action.
NewSouthgate
Member
Can someone explain to me who in the end pays for all of these pay rises that are being requested.
High Dyke
Established Member
I would suggest the threshold may have already passed. TOC's have publicised their contingency plans. This then leads to the situation where the trade union could suspend action and advise members to work as booked, but they'll all be sat there because the TOC has cancelled services. It's happened many times before.
Hi,
Network Rail worker out of the midlands and TSSA union member.
I will be joining the strike next week in solidarity due to having no pay rise in 3 years.
I meet Mr Grant Shapps only last year and he told me thank you for working through Covid. That thank you clearly does not extent to paying my mortgage, car insurance, gas bill, child care, etc.
I am a band 4 middle manager on £38k.
I get no bonus
I get no overtime
I am meant to work a 35 hour week but don’t think I have ever done less than 45 hours despite only being allowed to book 35 on the company’s internal time sheet.
Network Rail is a dire place to work, let me explain why.
Putting to one side the lack of pay rises and high inflation (real world pay cut) the company is stale.
There is no leadership from above, nor is leadership or enterprise encouraged at any level.
It’s one big burecratic mess that encourages itself to be more bureaucratic under the guises of health and safety.
The comments from conservative mps are from people who have no understanding.
If they had any understanding they would know the first and most important thing they need to do it wipe out the top few layers of management.
From the board down to band 3 level the roles are stuffed with people who adore rule enforcement, bureaucracy, that are risk averse to anything and everything and with no entrepreneurial understanding or dna.
It’s a company destined to fail, that delights in its failures and the failures give the large group of senior management reason to exist and dream up more schemes that profit outside companies at the expense of the taxpayer while having no benefit to passengers.
A few years ago they had a company reorganisation, to make the routes more accountable!
The result? Hundreds of more senior manager roles all on between £60-£150k, all pushing more bureaucracy, less productivity and even more risk adverse.
I would like it if grant shapps and co would spend some time and understand the problem starts with leadership or rather the lack of.
Network rail is in need of a major cull, but it needs to be the large group of senior managers.
The same managers who spent this past week boasting how they are going to earn double time and a lieu day during the strikes for ‘pointing passengers where to go on a platform’.
Network Rail or Great British Railways; whatever you call it until it gets some clear leadership and entrepreneurs running the show and rid of the mass of senior managers laughing at the taxpayer, the sooner it will turn around.
But don’t worry, because next week all of us lucky enough to work on LNW route are being sent pronoun posters so we can talk woke to one another!
Network Rail worker out of the midlands and TSSA union member.
I will be joining the strike next week in solidarity due to having no pay rise in 3 years.
I meet Mr Grant Shapps only last year and he told me thank you for working through Covid. That thank you clearly does not extent to paying my mortgage, car insurance, gas bill, child care, etc.
I am a band 4 middle manager on £38k.
I get no bonus
I get no overtime
I am meant to work a 35 hour week but don’t think I have ever done less than 45 hours despite only being allowed to book 35 on the company’s internal time sheet.
Network Rail is a dire place to work, let me explain why.
Putting to one side the lack of pay rises and high inflation (real world pay cut) the company is stale.
There is no leadership from above, nor is leadership or enterprise encouraged at any level.
It’s one big burecratic mess that encourages itself to be more bureaucratic under the guises of health and safety.
The comments from conservative mps are from people who have no understanding.
If they had any understanding they would know the first and most important thing they need to do it wipe out the top few layers of management.
From the board down to band 3 level the roles are stuffed with people who adore rule enforcement, bureaucracy, that are risk averse to anything and everything and with no entrepreneurial understanding or dna.
It’s a company destined to fail, that delights in its failures and the failures give the large group of senior management reason to exist and dream up more schemes that profit outside companies at the expense of the taxpayer while having no benefit to passengers.
A few years ago they had a company reorganisation, to make the routes more accountable!
The result? Hundreds of more senior manager roles all on between £60-£150k, all pushing more bureaucracy, less productivity and even more risk adverse.
I would like it if grant shapps and co would spend some time and understand the problem starts with leadership or rather the lack of.
Network rail is in need of a major cull, but it needs to be the large group of senior managers.
The same managers who spent this past week boasting how they are going to earn double time and a lieu day during the strikes for ‘pointing passengers where to go on a platform’.
Network Rail or Great British Railways; whatever you call it until it gets some clear leadership and entrepreneurs running the show and rid of the mass of senior managers laughing at the taxpayer, the sooner it will turn around.
But don’t worry, because next week all of us lucky enough to work on LNW route are being sent pronoun posters so we can talk woke to one another!
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