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Rail strikes discussion

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gazr

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It's worth mentioning the RMT are not affiliated with the labour party
Did a google search "Are RMT affiliated with Labour?" and this was the first result, "RMT Affiliates to the Labour Party, But Can Support Other Candidates Too This is the rule change, passed in 2003, that reaffirmed RMT's affiliation to the Labour but also allowed the union to back other candidates who support the union's policy objectives."
 
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KGX

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I can work from home and the strike isn't much skin off my nose, but I certainly don't hope they continue as I can see the bigger picture - they are going to be very damaging to an already fragile economy, and ultimately it affects all of us.

Much like during COVID when so many workers in various industries were celebrating what they saw as effectively paid holidays at home on the government's dime, I was certain it was going to bite us in the backside at some point, which is very much happening now. I'm getting fed up of my seeing my own quality of life in potential decline whilst many short-termists in this country think its all rather jolly. And they will be the first to complain and scream at the government when they realise this too.

(This is a slight at the people you're talking about, not you!).
Yes, undoubtedly the strikes will be damaging to the wider economy. I just don’t think the pressure will be there from the wider public for a resolution. Prior to the growth in WFH, a strike, particularly in London, would be a nightmare. Now, for many, just an excuse to avoid the commute and the office. Aware that not everyone can WFH of course.
 

mandub

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To be fair there are almost half a million National Education Union members and they're being balloted for strike action. Between NEU, Unison, GMB and Unite school staff of all grades are very likely to be taking industrial action this year.
And some of the job sectors listed by the poster (who was just asking an innocent question!) as a comparison have had pay rises in 2022 and earlier during Covid.
Supermarket workers at various firms have had them as have bus drivers here in Manchester and I'm sure elsewhere around the country.
 

brad465

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It's worth mentioning the RMT are not affiliated with the labour party
Hasn't stopped a number of Government MPs/Ministers calling them "Labour's strikes" or similar. Labour may well be refusing to condemn on and/or supporting them to an extent, but when you've been the governing party for 12 years this is a poor excuse/petty move.

The reality is that a strong correlation between high inflation and industrial action exists; don't like strikes, don't let inflation run riot in the first place, or at least allow pay to keep up.
 

windingroad

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That's why everyone would get the same based on how the company does. I'm not proposing individual performance related pay which would indeed be difficult.
I might be misunderstanding here, but I'd extrapolate my same concern at a company level, too.

If the idea is you're sharing in the success of the company, it's implicit that you've contributed to that success (or failure). But how do railway workers meaningfully affect the performance of the company, beyond avoiding outright incompetence? Any profit that company makes seems almost entirely dependent on the contract, economic conditions, and state of the infrastructure.

Though to be fair a "commission" per ticket scan might do that better.
Speaking again as someone who has never worked on the railway, how is this sort of thing monitored currently?
 

GB

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Could certainly be done for e.g. FirstGroup TOCs.

We used to have a employee share incentive plan when we were under Eurotunnel. Used to get upto 75 free shares a year and any purchased from your own money then the company would match 2 for 3....ie if you bought 2 the company would match it for 3, effectively free money. Both were a great way to get a bit of extra money but unfortunately that went when we were no longer part of Eurotunnel.
 
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Happy to be corrected here, but does that really make sense in the context of the railway? My (admittedly uninformed) perception is that, by and large, railway workers do a fairly strictly defined job which doesn't allow them much leeway to be high or low performers. In terms of the financial success of the railway, I'd argue that's almost entirely out of their hands.
At the heart of the railway is an inherent trade off. Safety versus performance. If safety is the overriding goal, productivity naturally suffers. It has to. I have to be sure something is safe before I can permit it. To not do so would expose me to criminal liability and lots of people to risk and danger.

The productivity claims are therefore as usual a misnomer from government (and now NR parroting this nonsense) because signallers are not assessed for their productivity. We are assessed for safety. Senior management continually impose very restrictive safety edicts and procedures on signallers so that maintenance tasks, for example, in between running trains take at least 3x longer to set up than they used to. You can definitely argue this is worthwhile as it reduces risk further (but only a small amount). However, you must also recognise that it has a productivity consequence. NRs senior management therefore asking for more productivity is ridiculous. These people are providing 0 leadership and are passing the buck again. They are blaming railway workers for their own incompetence.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Do the RMT not offer strike pay?
According to a number of press reports over the weekend, the strike pay the RMT is offering is £70 a day.

If that is correct, with 40,000 staff involved in the strike, the £22 million strike fund the RMT was saying it has will only cover eight days of the strike - though obviously that depends on how quickly the fund can be replenished.
 

bengley

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Did a google search "Are RMT affiliated with Labour?" and this was the first result, "RMT Affiliates to the Labour Party, But Can Support Other Candidates Too This is the rule change, passed in 2003, that reaffirmed RMT's affiliation to the Labour but also allowed the union to back other candidates who support the union's policy objectives."
Google isn't always accurate. I was at an ASLEF district council meeting yesterday and we were discussing that RMT branches have recently been trying to garner support from Labour MPs but have been told by at least one of them that they support the cause but cannot announce it publically because RMT don't affiliate (and thus don't fund) with the labour party.
 
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I can not understand why the Unions have to be affiliated with Labour (or any party) at this point in history. Surely, they should be independent and want what is only good for their members? As an outsider, Unions look like a Ponzi scheme with mob mentality; if you're not for unions, you're Tory (even if you vote Green, etc) and will be treated as such- and as such, everyone joins to not be an outcast. Sure, I know Unions have good points, and help individual members, but how many pay in week on week and never make use of them? Sorry if it's ignorance of my part, but that's how I see it.
Unions affiliate to various types of organisation where they see benefit to themselves of the values they exist for, or for those they affiliate to. For example, another rail union (TSSA) has had affiliation to the Labour Party for as long as I can remember. It has considered that the Labour Party gives it a voice in Parliament, which it would not have were it to link up to the vitriolic, anti-union, Conservatives, or other of the lesser political parties. Union members have to vote positively every so often to maintain a Political Fund - this is established by Statute.

I agree that many members pay union membership subs each week and might never have to call upon their services. I liken it to taking out fire insurance and hoping never having to use it. I have known folk seek to join a union once they have problems e.g. disciplinary - and then get declined. You could not reasonably take out fire insurance immediately after your house has burnt down and expect to make a claim.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Why should railway staff accept accept a real terms pay cut in exchange for a raft of punitive changes to their terms and conditions?

This has no relevance to other workers apart from attempting to pit them off against one another and they’ll soon be dragging the very same NHS and the teachers that they’re bleating about right now through the mud when they decline the derisory pay offers being suggested now.



Where is boris going to get agency drivers and signallers from? The reality here is that drivers and signallers will end up with separate deals and iI’ll be the lowest paid, non safety critical staff that are replaced by agency workers.

It would have no effect whatsoever in keeping trains running during industrial action but you’ll soon have the same daily Mail readers demanding that agency staff replace every other sector that engages in industrial action.
Happy to pull a few levers on a Saturday under supervision of course once I've got up to speed on my AB bell codes... :D Oh wait....
 

KM1991

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According to a number of press reports over the weekend, the strike pay the RMT is offering is £70 a day.

If that is correct, with 40,000 staff involved in the strike, the £22 million strike fund the RMT was saying it has will only cover eight days of the strike - though obviously that depends on how quickly the fund can be replenished.
There is no strike pay for this dispute.
 
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Speaking of which, Kay Burley’s ridiculous questioning of Mick Lynch this morning regarding picketing of agency staff was quite something.
I agree. She is usually well-briefed and can put interviewees under pressure. But Mick was completely unfazed and answered her question patiently 5 or 6 times but it still did not register with her how picketing worked. I suspect that Mick was relishing seeing her squirm as she dug a hole ever-deeper for herself.
 

quantinghome

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RMT are not affiliated to Labour. They disaffiliated during the Blair years, help found a separate political party in 2009 (TUSC), and considered reaffiliating when Corbyn was Labour leader, but in the end didn't. RMT may provide support to local Labour parties and MPs.
 

Bald Rick

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Profit sharing and company performance related bonuses are often paid for this kind of situation in private companies. This gives employee buy-in on ensuring the company makes a fat profit. Perhaps that should be considered? Or is that dirty capitalism?

Considering we have had over 25 years of privatised railway, I can only assume that the rail unions have never made any serious attempt to ask for profit related pay, perhaps the workers taking an uplift in any good profits is not seen as them as desirable (people getting bonuses automatically rather undermines some of their thinking)

it has been in place at NR for many years, as a general bonus scheme. Employees got* a bonus related to the success of the company each year which was based on a number of measures, including safety, performance, finance, passenger satisfaction etc. It typically paid out somewhere around £1000 per year.

Whilst it can be said that any individual would have a limited ability to influence the result, that is the same for most employees at any big company, most of which do similar things, albeit usually paying in shares rather than cash. The old tale about the floor sweeper at NASA comes to mind.


* I say ”got” as it was suspended in 2020 and 2021. However it was going to be paid this year, but AIUI now isn’t due to the strike, and won’t be next year either For the same reason.

It will also not have escaped any workers notice that NR senior management are parroting government talking points.

perhaps Government are repeating the points made to them by NR Senior Management? (And adding some political colour to it).
 

CFRAIL

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Thanks - any idea where the press get the £70 figure from? Making it up as per usual, I guess?
I did see a poster from another union saying their "strike pay" was £70. I contacted the RMT and they told me there was no fund but a local branch MAY be able to help.
 

DelayRepay

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As I have said, I do not take from the strike that the railway workers want a bigger pay rise than other public sector. I take from it that the railway workers differ in that while everyone wants one, most industries are accepting the difficulties and circumstances of the country and economy at present and not causing issues about one at the moment, and I wondered why that was.
A key difference is that the railway is heavily unionised, so they have a tool (industrial action) at their disposal. I would go as far as to say the railways are the last industry where their union has manged to retain such influence.

In my own industry (banking), we have a union but less than 50% of staff are members. Our union isn't required to hold a ballot about whether to accept the pay deal, they simply accept it on behalf of everyone including the >50% who are not members. So the reality, for better or worse, is that we simply don't have the tools available to us to 'force' a pay rise. All we have is negotiation.

Having said that, we do have an advantage over the Railways in that our recruitment market is competitive. It would be easy for me to go to another bank and earn the same, if not more money. The number of calls and Linkdin messages I get prove that. Less so when your specialist skills are as a train driver or train guard, where you are limited to a few TOCs, all of which have pretty similar T&Cs due to the way they were created historically.
 

theking

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Thanks - any idea where the press get the £70 figure from? Making it up as per usual, I guess?

Typical fake news media I don't know why anyone believes them

It's not even the RMT or anyone on the railway Yet I'm sure some on here have taken it as gospel and will bleat about it.
 

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duncanp

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According to a number of press reports over the weekend, the strike pay the RMT is offering is £70 a day.

If that is correct, with 40,000 staff involved in the strike, the £22 million strike fund the RMT was saying it has will only cover eight days of the strike - though obviously that depends on how quickly the fund can be replenished.

So, any guesses as to how many days of strikes there will be?

If the strikes were to continue after the strike fund has been exhausted and the RMT is no longer able to give strike pay, you may find the support for the strike starts to dwindle.
 

dk1

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I don’t ever recall getting any strike pay in the disputes that I’ve been involved in on the railway over the years. I might be wrong as didn’t notice or remember when I was younger but I’m sure I didn’t.
 

KM1991

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So, any guesses as to how many days of strikes there will be?

If the strikes were to continue after the strike fund has been exhausted and the RMT is no longer able to give strike pay, you may find the support for the strike starts to dwindle.
Again. There is no strike fund for this dispute. So your comment is a nonsense regarding “support”.
 

Neptune

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I can not understand why the Unions have to be affiliated with Labour (or any party) at this point in history.
The RMT are not affiliated to the Labour Party. Don’t believe everything you read in the press or hear on the news.

Surely, they should be independent and want what is only good for their members? As an outsider, Unions look like a Ponzi scheme with mob mentality; if you're not for unions, you're Tory (even if you vote Green, etc) and will be treated as such- and as such, everyone joins to not be an outcast. Sure, I know Unions have good points, and help individual members, but how many pay in week on week and never make use of them? Sorry if it's ignorance of my part, but that's how I see it.
Think of a union in the same way you look at car or home insurance. Most people may never need to use it but that one time something happens it’s nice to know that someone is there to fight your corner.
 

duncanp

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Again. There is no strike fund for this dispute. So your comment is a nonsense regarding “support”.

I was only going on the earlier post that said there was a strike fund, so I stand corrected on that point.

However, the longer the strike goes on, the greater the financial impact on the strikers, so they will want to see that the strike is going to achieve some results that make the loss of pay worthwhile.
 

KM1991

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I was only going on the earlier post that said there was a strike fund, so I stand corrected on that point.

However, the longer the strike goes on, the greater the financial impact on the strikers, so they will want to see that the strike is going to achieve some results that make the loss of pay worthwhile.
Agreed. Hopefully an agreement is reached before Thursday
 

matacaster

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Reduces contributions for the employers because of a smaller payroll, and the administrative costs of short service members who leave within two years.


Auto Enrolment can be satisfied using a defined contribution scheme, the existing RPS defined benefit schemes may already not be the auto-enrolment schemes in many cases.


Not really. The effect of an increase in retirement age means that someone taking their benefit at 60 just gets less because the early retirement reduction is five years rather than two years.
All governments have missed a simple answer to pension retirement age. It should simply be based on average life expectancy - x years and recalculated annually. Despite waspi women claiming to be hard done by, women live longer and pay less in, so arguably their pensions might reflect this. Alternatively, just take mean of men and women Life expectancy - x and keep it simple.
 

Gems

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Yes, and those 8 guards could come from the pool of staff the RMT are claiming will be made redundant.

Seems to me there's a very logical chain of movement here to solve the whole dispute

RMT agree to changes in the Sunday arrangements [ which I think they know they're going to have to sooner or later ] and all the extra positions needed come from the pool that the RMT claim are about to be made redundant. And in recognition staff are given a much larger than currently offered pay rise in lieu of accepting the changes to Sunday arrangements which would then separate it from other workers' claims in that part of it would be attributed to accepting the changes.

But somebody needs to give Shapps a good slap for deliberately inflating the average wage figure by including the drivers rates in all the figures he was quoting and smirking all the time he was doing it knowing full well what he was doing. A really good educated and reasonable-sounding RMT spokesman with the well-prepared correct figures could blow a hole so big in Shapps argument that I doubt that he'd recover from it.
I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. You can't just pick 8 new guards from a pool of redundant booking office staff. What if four of them were colour blind and the other four couldn't pass the required standard ?

As for the Sunday working. It works very well on the Northernrail east side. Basically what is proposed has been in place for years, Most people have no issue with it. Things can be negotiated with the right attitude. But do Tory ministers have the right attitude?
 
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