Article: The next TfL financial crunch will be wrapped in a purple ribbon, and labelled “Crossrail”.

Taunton said:

Point proven.

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So spouting Conservative Central Office propaganda is fine but anyone challenging it is not... Five, glad that we understand.

For what it is worth l'm pretty sure that the last thing Shapps wants is TfL under central government control. No doubts about where the blame for cuts falls then and Tory prospects in London are already grim.

Taunton said:

I think a number of the comments above show something of the problem here, that there are a significant number who just want to make a political issue out of what is a major transportation funding point. But there are those who would rather yaa-boo at politicians of the opposing colour to their own than do anything constructive.

Yes, the letter from the SofS is blunt, but it is also straightforward and does sound like someone exasperated at wanting to resolve things practically. That's not a one-sided political point, it is the facts of the matter.

If I was the SofS I would consider taking TfL back into full central government control. It consumes a great deal of public money, which needs to be spent properly.

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Its taking far less per passenger carried across all modes than some of the main line TOCs

Taunton said:

I think a number of the comments above show something of the problem here, that there are a significant number who just want to make a political issue out of what is a major transportation funding point. But there are those who would rather yaa-boo at politicians of the opposing colour to their own than do anything constructive.

Yes, the letter from the SofS is blunt, but it is also straightforward and does sound like someone exasperated at wanting to resolve things practically. That's not a one-sided political point, it is the facts of the matter.

If I was the SofS I would consider taking TfL back into full central government control. It consumes a great deal of public money, which needs to be spent properly.

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This would probably only making the financial shortfall bigger, because it would probably cost you the income from the london-only TfL tax

In addition, if the aim truly was genuinely resolving the issues, rather than political point-scoring, why wasn't TfL treated the same as other public transport operators during the pandemic? I got the distinct impression that the central government was trying to blame the mayor for covid to improve their chances at the mayoral election, rather than keeping london going

Taunton said:

If I was the SofS I would consider taking TfL back into full central government control. It consumes a great deal of public money, which needs to be spent properly.

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I imagine that would require a major amendment to the Act of Parliament which created the office of Mayor Of London.

Nicholas Lewis said:

Can't see letter from Shapps above but DfT has given them another temporary extension see

https://assets.publishing.service.g...5296/letter-sos-mayor-of-london-june-2022.pdf

Theres a lot of pushing back to TfL being responsible for the issues particularly about bus route cuts but in summary

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Khan's reply on twitter.

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@GrantShapps
- if you want to "reset the relationship", why not: 1. Tell the truth. TfL have no choice but to force London bus cuts 2. Agree to meet me & discuss this like adults 3. Not leak letters to the media way before sending them Londoners & our capital deserve better.

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Can Shapps only accuse others of what he does himself?

Tfl /the Mayor have largely responded to DfT /the SoS's previous "bullet pointed / numbered" demand items in the previous settlement and discussion letters.

Except:
1) Driver less train study /assessments etc. with nothing public yet. the reality is that the only tube line where it makes any kind of sense is the Waterloo and City (just 2 stations so PED costs are low and existing signalling low capacity compared to what the line could provide capacity wise) so DfT probably won't want much public and Shapps hasn't mentioned this so has presumably he had the (pretty negative) technical report feedback in private...
2) TfL Pensions. Everyone knows this will kick things off leading to major strikes hence TfL/Mayor avoids. TfL already have 2 strike issues a don't want a third huge one.

Shapps is presumably unhappy that TfL isn't sharing the rail strike pain in the same way as the rest of the country and want TfL to share in the pain.

Pensions is also a looming issue for the rest of the rail industry and Shapps may want TfL to go through the pain first. The Mayor and TfL will want the rest of the rail network and Shapps to go through the pension pain first.

TfL has long known than some of the bus network is hugely loss making compared to the TfL average and have been wanting to address this for years. Crossrail fully opening up is expected to impact and increase the loss making nature of more of the central London routes and they have been waiting for Crossrail opening for years to be able to adjust and cull the network.
For the first 2 mayors in the financial good times, adding to and tweaking the bus network kept lots of local councils and councillors of all parties happy. Hence lots of irate Conservative councils and councillors lobbying Shapps because one of their methods of keeping voters happy without paying for it has gone and councils can barely afford anything to do directly themselves.

TfL is performing better than their budget expectations so far but the national rail strikes will also impact them.

The main area of freedom to improve the overall financial operating position that TfL now have outside pensions, fare rises and service levels is to start removing the 60+ but younger than ENTCS age "gap filler" pass (originally a Boris vote buying pledge) faster than the current "very gradually in the next two future mayor's terms" plan that costs TfL an 8 figure a year sum for years to come.

SynthD said:

Khan's reply on twitter.

Can Shapps only accuse others of what he does himself?

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Shapps must really be smarting that the independent review of the pension scheme didn't go the way he wanted. It gave the scheme a clean bill of health and highlighted that any savings from restructuring it would take years to achieve and would worsen TfL's recruitment and retention problems.

Goldfish62 said:

Shapps must really be smarting that the independent review of the pension scheme didn't go the way he wanted. It gave the scheme a clean bill of health and highlighted that any savings from restructuring it would take years to achieve and would worsen TfL's recruitment and retention problems.

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That's the problem politicians have with anything truly independent. So many injuries are not properly so as Ministers set the remit and often select the membership.....

@jayah has fallen for some total nonsense about funding, perhaps because they happen to dislike the idea of Freedom Pass holders and some children, disabled people and veterans getting free travel, perhaps because they simply don't like Sadiq Khan or perhaps because they're just jealous? I don't know but it's complete rubbish either way. Several hundreds of millions of pounds per year are required. A tiny number of children, older people and disabled people getting free travel on some of the stopping services only between West Drayton and Reading will not produce any statistically significant difference here either way.

Now of course, if they were putting forward the view that under for disabled people, under 18s and over 60s travel should be more normalised across the whole four nations of the country then I could completely agree. Perhaps baseline national funding for concessionary travel plus locally funded enhancements in specific areas is in fact a great solution to organising mobility for these groups. But notably they're not doing that, they're purely whinging about a specific small group of people having something good that they think shouldn't be offered.

Removing the 60+ benefit would be normalising with the rest of the country.

SynthD said:

Removing the 60+ benefit would be normalising with the rest of the country.

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Its certainly appropriate that DfT don't have to provide financial support for the 60+ travel concession costs that one for Londoners to fund.

Nicholas Lewis said:

Its certainly appropriate that DfT don't have to provide financial support for the 60+ travel concession costs that one for Londoners to fund.

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Can I check my understanding on the funding of these age concessions ?
I was under the belief that the 60+ concession was charged back to London local councils ( either individually or collectively ) - so paid for out of council tax / combined income.
Is the Freedom pass funded by TfL ?. I understand central govt. fund the ENCTS bus concession throughout England so presumably TfL get a portion - so who pays for the metro element ?

Both concessions are very generous . I live in Herts and get 1/3 discount with a Senior RC + ENCTS. I accept my council tax may be lower for the equivalent properly in LB Harrow just over the border but not to cover the difference between 2/3 Tube fares compared to completely free . I spend around £75 pcm on public transport ( all off peak - the vast majority to and within London )

Malaxa said:

Interesting musings. I didn't quite give up when he implied that Crossrail money could have been better poured into that inefficient, bottomless pit called the NHS... Perhaps the London bus system could do with some massive pruning, but then that's another sacred cow to Khan and his crowd.

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The NHS is *extremely* efficient. This isn't a political opinion, just a fact: it provides comprehensive health cover to the entire population for far less than other rich countries spend on health.

wildcard said:

Is the Freedom pass funded by TfL ?. I understand central govt. fund the ENCTS bus concession throughout England so presumably TfL get a portion - so who pays for the metro element ?

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London Councils administers the Freedom Pass and reimburses TfL and other operators.

wildcard said:

Can I check my understanding on the funding of these age concessions ?
I was under the belief that the 60+ concession was charged back to London local councils ( either individually or collectively ) - so paid for out of council tax / combined income.
Is the Freedom pass funded by TfL ?. I understand central govt. fund the ENCTS bus concession throughout England so presumably TfL get a portion - so who pays for the metro element ?

Both concessions are very generous . I live in Herts and get 1/3 discount with a Senior RC + ENCTS. I accept my council tax may be lower for the equivalent properly in LB Harrow just over the border but not to cover the difference between 2/3 Tube fares compared to completely free . I spend around £75 pcm on public transport ( all off peak - the vast majority to and within London )

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You only get ENTCS when you get to pensionable age which is well over 65 now whereas in London you get TfL travel from age 60 whether your working or not.

Nicholas Lewis said:

You only get ENTCS when you get to pensionable age which is well over 65 now whereas in London you get TfL travel from age 60 whether your working or not.

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Isn't the TfL over-60 concession more limited than the full OAP-age one?

AlbertBeale said:

Isn't the TfL over-60 concession more limited than the full OAP-age one?

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It's a one-off cost of £20 and it can't be used on the Elizabeth line between West Drayton and Reading.

Since the Freedom Pass became restricted to from 0900 Mon-Fri (pre-Covid it was 24/7 on TfL services) I don't think there are any other differences.

Goldfish62 said:

It's a one-off cost of £20 and it can't be used on the Elizabeth line between West Drayton and Reading.

Since the Freedom Pass became restricted to from 0900 Mon-Fri (pre-Covid it was 24/7 on TfL services) I don't think there are any other differences.

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Freedom passes are standard encts passes which can be used on non tfl bus services. In accordance with the ENCTS scheme . 60+ oysters cannot.

matt_world2004 said:

Freedom passes are standard encts passes which can be used on non tfl bus services. In accordance with the ENCTS scheme . 60+ oysters cannot.

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Yes, you're absolutely right of course! Doh!

AlbertBeale said:

Isn't the TfL over-60 concession more limited than the full OAP-age one?

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Yes

Goldfish62 said:

Yes, you're absolutely right of course! Doh!

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I think there is a different method of reimbursement for 60+ Oysters too. Councils pay tfl some money for the 60+ oysters but this is to reimburse national rail operators. Tfl services get no money for 60+ oyster usage

Starmill said:

@jayah has fallen for some total nonsense about funding, perhaps because they happen to dislike the idea of Freedom Pass holders and some children, disabled people and veterans getting free travel, perhaps because they simply don't like Sadiq Khan or perhaps because they're just jealous? I don't know but it's complete rubbish either way. Several hundreds of millions of pounds per year are required. A tiny number of children, older people and disabled people getting free travel on some of the stopping services only between West Drayton and Reading will not produce any statistically significant difference here either way.

Now of course, if they were putting forward the view that under for disabled people, under 18s and over 60s travel should be more normalised across the whole four nations of the country then I could completely agree. Perhaps baseline national funding for concessionary travel plus locally funded enhancements in specific areas is in fact a great solution to organising mobility for these groups. But notably they're not doing that, they're purely whinging about a specific small group of people having something good that they think shouldn't be offered.

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Complete nonsense.

There are 900,000 Freedom Pass holders who get free travel including TfL Rail outside London another 370,000 with the over 60 Oystercard giving free travel within Greater London.

It is a lavish set of entitlements that cannot reasonably be justified while the Mayor claims a funding crisis on Central Government, while trying to take the Bakerloo Line hostage in his attempts to bribe voters with the money of taxpayers outside of London, who have never enjoyed such perks.

You cannot fund first rate public services and decent pay for people providing it, while allowing 30% of people to use it for nothing.

Normalising concessionary travel means Central Government refusing to fund non-means tested election campaign bribes using national taxation.

If the people of London want these perks, let them pay for free travel through their Council Tax instead of your magic money tree.

jayah said:

There are 900,000 Freedom Pass holders who get free travel including TfL Rail outside London another 370,000 with the over 60 Oystercard giving free travel within Greater London.

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Indeed! So the lost revenues count for at most a few million pounds per year. In other words not enough to make a difference.

jayah said:

allowing 30% of people to use it for nothing.

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[Citation needed]

jayah said:

Complete nonsense.

There are 900,000 Freedom Pass holders who get free travel including TfL Rail outside London another 370,000 with the over 60 Oystercard giving free travel within Greater London.

It is a lavish set of entitlements that cannot reasonably be justified while the Mayor claims a funding crisis on Central Government, while trying to take the Bakerloo Line hostage in his attempts to bribe voters with the money of taxpayers outside of London, who have never enjoyed such perks.

You cannot fund first rate public services and decent pay for people providing it, while allowing 30% of people to use it for nothing.

Normalising concessionary travel means Central Government refusing to fund non-means tested election campaign bribes using national taxation.

If the people of London want these perks, let them pay for free travel through their Council Tax instead of your magic money tree.

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Your post is indeed complete nonsense.

London Councils, the collective body for London local authorities, pays for the Freedom Pass. I fully concede that funding for those councils from central Government doubtless pays some of the costs of that. It is, however, absolutely standard for councils to have discretion over their spending.

I believe that TfL bears the cost of the over 60s Oyster card (the very thing that you failed to recognise even existed for over a week). There is a legitimate argument that Oyster card, introduced by Johnson as Mayor - was it a bribe to voters then??? - when central Government changed the eligibility for ETCS from 60 to state pension age, could/should be withdrawn.

The current population of Greater London is approximately 8.9M. If your figures for the numbers of Freedom Pass and Over 60+ Oyster card holders are accurate they total less than 1.3M in total. When l did my maths degree 1.3M is not, and never will be, 30% of 8.9M..... Where does the other approx 15% come from???

At the 2012 elections both Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone pledged to bridge the gap between age 60 and the rising age of Freedom Pass eligibility - it wasn't an issue between the parties as it was in both manifestoes and would have happened whoever won.

James H said:

At the 2012 elections both Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone pledged to bridge the gap between age 60 and the rising age of Freedom Pass eligibility - it wasn't an issue between the parties as it was in both manifestoes and would have happened whoever won.

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TY. Useful clarification.

Wolfie said:

The current population of Greater London is approximately 8.9M. If your figures for the numbers of Freedom Pass and Over 60+ Oyster card holders are accurate they total less than 1.3M in total. When l did my maths degree 1.3M is not, and never will be, 30% of 8.9M..... Where does the other approx 15% come from???

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And of course a very high proportion of London's visitors use its public transport network, including those from the UK outside of Greater London, and the rest of the world...

Wolfie said:

Your post is indeed complete nonsense.

London Councils, the collective body for London local authorities, pays for the Freedom Pass. I fully concede that funding for those councils from central Government doubtless pays some of the costs of that. It is, however, absolutely standard for councils to have discretion over their spending.

I believe that TfL bears the cost of the over 60s Oyster card (the very thing that you failed to recognise even existed for over a week). There is a legitimate argument that Oyster card, introduced by Johnson as Mayor - was it a bribe to voters then??? - when central Government changed the eligibility for ETCS from 60 to state pension age, could/should be withdrawn.

The current population of Greater London is approximately 8.9M. If your figures for the numbers of Freedom Pass and Over 60+ Oyster card holders are accurate they total less than 1.3M in total. When l did my maths degree 1.3M is not, and never will be, 30% of 8.9M..... Where does the other approx 15% come from???

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The current 'funding crisis' has been caused by politicians using concessionary travel as an election bribe.

The current Mayor who has tried taking the Bakerloo Line hostage as leverage is not unique in that. The fact remains, with lavish schemes for young and old, and some of the cheapest bus fares in the UK, this so called gap could easily be closed on the revenue side, although there are doubtless lots of empty trains and buses too.

1.3M is now a 'tiny' number?

It may have escaped your notice, but similar lavish concessions also exist at the other end of the age scale.

At the tinier end of the scale free travel for 30,000 TfL employees and 30,000 plus ones who need can literally be anyone nominated by the employee.

Starmill said:

So the lost revenues count for at most a few million pounds per year.

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Definitely needs a citation. If you think Londoners spend <£10 pa on public transport you must live in a fantasy world.

On the other hand, the population of London aged 5-18 and over 60 doesn't need one.

The Bakerloo is not hostage. As soon as central government deem the London mayor worthy of long term funding, it will receive its high priority funding. Is TfL being held hostage by people who refuse to help Labour mayors? This 60+ gift has escaped criticism from some areas for a while. I don’t think considering charging children full price warrants any further time.

jayah said:

The current 'funding crisis' has been caused by politicians using concessionary travel as an election bribe.

The current Mayor who has tried taking the Bakerloo Line hostage as leverage is not unique in that. The fact remains, with lavish schemes for young and old, and some of the cheapest bus fares in the UK, this so called gap could easily be closed on the revenue side, although there are doubtless lots of empty trains and buses too.

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So you’re seriously telling us that the TfL funding crisis is *caused* by 1.2m ish people with concessionary travel (so pretty much just OAPs, children, disabled people)? It’s pretty clear from the posts above that that simply doesn’t stack up in terms of the figures. Can I ask, is this something else you’ve read in the Daily Mail and taken as gospel?

This strikes me as a rather unpleasant scapegoating of a relatively small group of people, that includes many vulnerable members of society. You also seem to have some sort of resentment towards London - I think you’ll find London (and Londoners) subsidise the rest of the country rather than the other way around.