PhilipW
Member
Just a question.
Have far east of Charlbury station is the redoubling going to go ?
Have far east of Charlbury station is the redoubling going to go ?
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Cotswold Line Redoubling
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The Planner
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About 400 yards.
PhilipW
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Thank you.
How much single track will that leave between Charlbury and Wolvercote Junction ? About 8 miles ?
How much single track will that leave between Charlbury and Wolvercote Junction ? About 8 miles ?
The Planner
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Nearer 10.
lancastrian
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Although I am glad that they are redoubling the majority of the Cotswold Line, what I can't understand is why they are not doing it all at the same time. If past experience is anything to go by, give it abut 5 years and they will realise that they should ahve doubled it all.
Exepct the same problems with the Salisbury to Exeter line, even with the new loop at Axminster. Which should have been exrened through Chard Junction, along with reopening the station there as Chard Parkway.
Exepct the same problems with the Salisbury to Exeter line, even with the new loop at Axminster. Which should have been exrened through Chard Junction, along with reopening the station there as Chard Parkway.
The Planner
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The amount doubled is based on the predicted demand for capacity. Lots of options were considered, including the whole thing, but cost benefit showed that this was the most favourable. Considering over 30 odd miles of it will be double track, and I doubt if the service would ever get past half hourly it should be plenty.
76m 30 ch Which is 100 yds Charlbury station side of Cornbury Park bridge. This is where the crossover is going to be. But there is enviremental issues. Snails, newts and badgers
route:oxford
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Snail and newts? Badgers eat them don't they?
lancastrian
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This is not supprising to me, as for some daft reason our political leaders seem to care more about "Snail, Newts & Badgers" than about people having a decent rail system. There was a rail line there for over 100 years, so lets stop worrying about what many people consider as pests and get the railway back there for people to use.
Concerning Swindon to Kemble line, this is yet another example of the total short sightedness of those who tried to save money and will end up costing even more. What is needed is someone to grasp the nettle and get ALL of these double tracked lines that where singled, to be redoubled as soon as possible.
And while they are doing that the should reinstate the four tracks on the WCML between Standish and Balshaw Lane, so that the stations at Coppull and Standish can be reopend.
Invincibles
Member
The Kemble line is used as a diversion route and with electrification coming to the GWML surely will see a lot more use as a diversion. I do not say electrify it but certainly redouble it to take the HSTs on divert easier.
The line from Standish through to the current end of 4 tracking would definitely make sense, there are some sizeable towns on the route that would benefit from stops on the Liverpool-Preston train (especially post electrification when the acceleration of EMUs can be used).
Both off topic though because the real issue here is the Cotswold line, which is a good line I just struggle to see as many uses for it as a diversion route. For that reason it seems that they would just be doing it for services on that line and as has already been said the new line will support trains every 30 minutes. This would seem ample.
Now if there were a chord down onto the Cheltenham - Birmingham line...
The line from Standish through to the current end of 4 tracking would definitely make sense, there are some sizeable towns on the route that would benefit from stops on the Liverpool-Preston train (especially post electrification when the acceleration of EMUs can be used).
Both off topic though because the real issue here is the Cotswold line, which is a good line I just struggle to see as many uses for it as a diversion route. For that reason it seems that they would just be doing it for services on that line and as has already been said the new line will support trains every 30 minutes. This would seem ample.
Now if there were a chord down onto the Cheltenham - Birmingham line...
PhilipW
Member
If the Wolvercote to Charlbury single section is 10 miles (approx) a train would take about 15 mins to pass over it assuming stops at the 3 stations en route.
Allowing then a train to come the other way and giving a little flexibility of 5 mins, that means there would have to be a 35 min gap for one train to follow another. Even that seems a bit optimistic and I would have thought a 45 gap more realistic.
A 10 mile single stretch is a very long distance. I therefore really cannot see that the current redoubling would allow a 30 min frequency in both directions as some on this thread have indicated.
Allowing then a train to come the other way and giving a little flexibility of 5 mins, that means there would have to be a 35 min gap for one train to follow another. Even that seems a bit optimistic and I would have thought a 45 gap more realistic.
A 10 mile single stretch is a very long distance. I therefore really cannot see that the current redoubling would allow a 30 min frequency in both directions as some on this thread have indicated.
The Planner
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But the 3 station in the middle have a very infrequent service. Combe is more or less a parliamentary service as is Finstock. Hanborough has an hourly stop.
Wolvercot Jn to Charlbury would take about 11-12 minutes including the Hanborough stop. That gives a single line occupation of 48 minutes for a half hourly service. Allow 3 minutes for a single line re-occupation margin, that makes 60.
You also need to remember that the single line stretch is 100mph and depending on whether Hanborough would require a half hourly frequency (which it wouldnt IMO) you will have trains occupying the single line for a lot less time, probably only 8 or 9 minutes. It's do-able.
lancastrian
Member
This is precisely the reason why I feel the whole line should have been redoubled, not just the parts they are doing. The same capacity problems will be there between Evesham and Worcester. Yet again a half hearted effort, which is lead by accountants who are obsesed with costs, not by railwaymen who know what is really needed. As I said, they need to stop messing about and re-double the whole route.
PhilipW
Member
Just a further question:
If a northbound train is being held at Wolvercote Junction waiting for a southbound train to clear the single track section, is the waiting train blocking the northbound Banbury line or is there a loop for it to wait on ?
If a northbound train is being held at Wolvercote Junction waiting for a southbound train to clear the single track section, is the waiting train blocking the northbound Banbury line or is there a loop for it to wait on ?
The Planner
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Why will there be problems ?? It's extended out towards Norton Jn too, the double track doesn't end at Evesham station. It is basically a mirror image of the Oxford end which I have already explained will work. It would be a waste of money for something that would rarely be utilised.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Depends how far down the single stretch it was, if it was close to Wolvercot Jn the signaller would probably send it from Oxford, if not hold it at Oxford station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Depends how far down the single stretch it was, if it was close to Wolvercot Jn the signaller would probably send it from Oxford, if not hold it at Oxford station.
PhilipW
Member
Thanks. I was not aware that Oxford had two Northbound platforms (but am happy to be corrected, if wrong).
So, if the southbound train is substantially late on the single track, the northbound Worcester train is, in effect, blocking the northbound Banbury lines because it is blocking the line at Oxford staion.
Is that true ?
The Oxford signalman could decide to not give the slot for the southbound train though and send the northbound train over the single line first.
Did Network Rail have a plan to upgrade the northbound goods loop to passenger standard, so that a train for worcester could be held there, whilst awaiting the single line to clear, WITHOUT blocking the platform lines ?
Or has this plan not been put into effect ?
Or has this plan not been put into effect ?
PhilipW
Member
I am aware that there was(is) a plan, but am not aware that that is has been (or is going to be) put into effect.
Let's look at a worse case scenario:
-- Northbound train is in Oxford Platforms.
-- Southbound train is at Charlbury
-- Southbound train leaves and takes 10 mins to reach Wolvercote.
-- Northbound trains sets off at Min 8 and takes 2 mins to reach Wolvercote
-- they pass just south of Wolvercote
So the northbound Banbury lines have, in effect, been blocked for 8 mins.
Not good in my opinion. The blocking of the lines at the station may even have an impact of Paddington-Oxford suburban services arriving at Oxford.
While the currrent redoubling project is welcome, it still leaves problems.
As I said above, if the Oxford signalman doesn't give the slot then the southbound train can't enter the single line section so they could just send the northbound train first.
PhilipW
Member
Point taken Zoe, but my point remains valid.
Releasing the northbound train first means that the southbound train will have to remain in Charlbury for 13 mins (10 plus 3) while releasing the southbound first can just mean a delay of 7 mins (10 minus 3).
More generally if the southbound was 2 to 3 mins into the single section when the northbound entered Oxford, the Banbury lines are still blocked for 5 mins or so.
I know it is not going to happen (cost) but I would have thought a good solution would have been to double Wolvercote Junction and double the first mile of track. Then any delayed northbound could be held there without any impact at all on the smooth running of the Banbury lines and Oxford station.
However that is not to be.
Releasing the northbound train first means that the southbound train will have to remain in Charlbury for 13 mins (10 plus 3) while releasing the southbound first can just mean a delay of 7 mins (10 minus 3).
More generally if the southbound was 2 to 3 mins into the single section when the northbound entered Oxford, the Banbury lines are still blocked for 5 mins or so.
I know it is not going to happen (cost) but I would have thought a good solution would have been to double Wolvercote Junction and double the first mile of track. Then any delayed northbound could be held there without any impact at all on the smooth running of the Banbury lines and Oxford station.
However that is not to be.
The Planner
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Takes 4 minutes to Wolvercot from a stand, and the down loop was upgraded so a train can leave and sit in the DPL at Oxford North and be overtaken.
PhilipW
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Thanks. Good information. Glad to hear it.
starlightEXPRESS
Member
AIUI Oxford resignalling (and recontrol to the TVSC) is due 2014-19. The plan is to redouble Wolvercot - Charlbury at that point. In the meantime the upgrading of the Down Goods Loop north of Oxford to passenger status is sufficient.
Well it actually has 3 platforms that can be used as northbound - I've departed there for the Cotswold line from all 3 platforms
But using the London platform for a northbound train is very disruptive.
trains2064
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I believe the are several reasons all to do with the infrastructure.
1, The line being left single at the worcester end due to the time and cost altering the signalling which is going to have to wait till worcester is resignalled.
2, The same at the oxford end.
3, As a short term fix the resignalling work is being do with reused signalling. A lot from the reasontly resignalled North Warwicks Line.
All this leaves a lot to be done in a phase 2 and 3 but a allows for the projected short term growth for the line. It should aid the business case as well for further use of long marston and the reconnection of stratford with honeybourne.
1, The line being left single at the worcester end due to the time and cost altering the signalling which is going to have to wait till worcester is resignalled.
2, The same at the oxford end.
3, As a short term fix the resignalling work is being do with reused signalling. A lot from the reasontly resignalled North Warwicks Line.
All this leaves a lot to be done in a phase 2 and 3 but a allows for the projected short term growth for the line. It should aid the business case as well for further use of long marston and the reconnection of stratford with honeybourne.
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