Emergency door release on class 700s

MikePJ · 28 Jul 2022

On Tuesday (26th July), I was on a Thameslink Class 700 (12-car variant) which left Cambridge and headed for Brighton.

We had an unscheduled stop at Meldreth, with the driver announcing that there was an overhead wire problem ahead.

The train came to a stand with only the rearmost coach (which I was sat in) wholly in the platform. After about 20 minutes of waiting, a decision was made to get everyone off the train.

What surprised me was that they weren't able to release the normal passenger door on the rear coach, and instead chose to have everyone alight via the rear cab and driver's door.

Of course, it would have been possible to release the door using the emergency release handle but then presumably it would have been difficult to close it again when the train was needed to be moved again.

Is there some limitation of the 700s' doors system that prevents a driver releasing a specific door?

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bengley · 28 Jul 2022

It's entirely possible for the driver to isolate all doors from the in cab TMS HMI (screen) apart from the rear coach. It would likely have been acceptable to do so as long as the driver was 100% sure which doors were accommodated.

BREL · 29 Jul 2022

Every door on the 700s has a Guards panel so the Driver could have just used his T key to open the panel and then again use his T key to activate the panel and then press the local door open button (the black button) on the panel which would just open that one door on the platform for passengers to alight.

ComUtoR · 29 Jul 2022

BREL said:
Every door on the 700s has a Guards panel so the Driver could have just used his T key to open the panel and then again use his T key to activate the panel and then press the local door open button (the black button) on the panel which would just open that one door on the platform for passengers to alight.

I didn't think it was "every door"

MikePJ said:
What surprised me was that they weren't able to release the normal passenger door on the rear coach, and instead chose to have everyone alight via the rear cab and driver's door.

Of course, it would have been possible to release the door using the emergency release handle but then presumably it would have been difficult to close it again when the train was needed to be moved again.

Is there some limitation of the 700s' doors system that prevents a driver releasing a specific door?

If the door was mechanically locked then an egress wouldn't work.

Towers · 29 Jul 2022

ComUtoR said:
If the door was mechanically locked then an egress wouldn't work.

On the vast majority of newish stock, isolating/locking a door out of use won't affect operation of the egress, which will still function as normal. The Rulebook was updated fairly recently to reflect this. 700s might be an exception, though?

ComUtoR · 29 Jul 2022

Towers said:
On the vast majority of newish stock, isolating/locking a door out of use won't affect operation of the egress,

Towers said:
which will still function as normal. The Rulebook was updated fairly recently to reflect this. 700s might be an exception, though?

It's mechanical or electrical on a 700 (if memory serves me correct)

The mechanical lock with prevent an egress.

O L Leigh · 29 Jul 2022

Towers said:
On the vast majority of newish stock, isolating/locking a door out of use won't affect operation of the egress, which will still function as normal. The Rulebook was updated fairly recently to reflect this. 700s might be an exception, though?

There's a difference between isolating and locking doors on most stock. A TMS isolation, like SDO, just takes the door out of circuit but does not physically lock it. However, locking a door is a mechanical process that will prevent the door being opened in any circumstance.

There used to be "door regulations" that dictated when a vehicle should be taken out of service as a result of a door fault. I have wondered if these still apply in the same way and what the process would be for stock without doors between the coaches, such as the Cl700s.

Tynwald · 29 Jul 2022

You could either use the asdo
(if they have them). or use the egress handles. no problem either way

O L Leigh · 29 Jul 2022

Tynwald said:
You could either use the asdo

As a driver, you'd have to be very sure exactly how many doors are platformed before doing anything in the cab. External CCTV should be accessible on a stationary train without a door release to ascertain this or, if not sure, the driver ought to go back and see.

jon0844 · 29 Jul 2022

BREL said:
Every door on the 700s has a Guards panel so the Driver could have just used his T key to open the panel and then again use his T key to activate the panel and then press the local door open button (the black button) on the panel which would just open that one door on the platform for passengers to alight.

There isn't a guards operating panel on every door. They are only in certain coaches, and not near the ends of the train.

TurboMan · 29 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
There's a difference between isolating and locking doors on most stock. A TMS isolation, like SDO, just takes the door out of circuit but does not physically lock it. However, locking a door is a mechanical process that will prevent the door being opened in any circumstance.

On 80x, individual doors can only be locked out of use mechanically with a carriage key (there's no option to do so via the TMS, only by unit), but operating the egress overrides the lock.

On this 700 though, why couldn't the doors just be released in the normal way? Assuming the location is in the SDO database, the system would do the rest, even if it's an out of course stop. Or do they not work like that?

whoosh · 29 Jul 2022

BREL said:
Every door on the 700s has a Guards panel so the Driver could have just used his T key to open the panel and then again use his T key to activate the panel and then press the local door open button (the black button) on the panel which would just open that one door on the platform for passengers to alight.

On a 12 car only cars 3,4,9 and 10 have Guard's panels, and even then only one panel per side - so not at every door even on those cars.

TurboMan said:
On 80x, individual doors can only be locked out of use mechanically with a carriage key (there's no option to do so via the TMS, only by unit), but operating the egress overrides the lock.

On this 700 though, why couldn't the doors just be released in the normal way? Assuming the location is in the SDO database, the system would do the rest, even if it's an out of course stop. Or do they not work like that?

If you release SDO, you are always releasing from the leading car. So front x number of cars. So if the front car is off the platform, it's no good.

jon0844 · 29 Jul 2022

TurboMan said:
On 80x, individual doors can only be locked out of use mechanically with a carriage key (there's no option to do so via the TMS, only by unit), but operating the egress overrides the lock.

On this 700 though, why couldn't the doors just be released in the normal way? Assuming the location is in the SDO database, the system would do the rest, even if it's an out of course stop. Or do they not work like that?

Maybe they tried, but if you remember back to the introduction of the 700s and 717s, there were many instances where drivers struggled to operate the doors using (M)SDO in some situations and maybe rather than faff around trying to resolve the problem the decision was made to just use the cab door.

One problem with the 700s is that only two doors have the notches for a ramp, which would have caused problems had there been a wheelchair users onboard. Clearly they wouldn't be able to use the cab, so the use of the doors would have been essential - another problem in its own right.

TurboMan · 29 Jul 2022

whoosh said:
If you release SDO, you are always releasing from the leading car. So front x number of cars. So if the front car is off the platform, it's no good.

Sorry, I misread the first post, I thought it was the rear vehicle off the platform, not that it was the only vehicle platformed. So yes, it wouldn't have been any good releasing the doors and letting the SDO do it's job.

Towers · 30 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
There's a difference between isolating and locking doors on most stock. A TMS isolation, like SDO, just takes the door out of circuit but does not physically lock it. However, locking a door is a mechanical process that will prevent the door being opened in any circumstance.

I'm not familiar with 'locking' doors out on modern stock, there is generally just a local isolation switch, surely? Generally operated, usually from the inside, with a carriage key? Are we saying a Class 700 has some sort of bolt mechanism fitted, in addition to the usual local isolation switch?

Class2ldn · 30 Jul 2022

On 700s you can isolate doors electrically via the HMI , (now the preferred way for fire regs so they can still be egressed) or mechanically at the door itself.
You can also lock out any doors on any coach you want but if it was just the rear coach on most drivers probably wouldn't take the chance and also locking out each door takes a few minutes on the HMI , you've then got to manually unlock them again after so its a bit of a pain and time consuming.

ComUtoR · 30 Jul 2022

Towers said:
I'm not familiar with 'locking' doors out on modern stock, there is generally just a local isolation switch, surely? Generally operated, usually from the inside, with a carriage key?

The local carriage key lock on the 700 is a mechanical lock. It will physically lock the door which will prevent an egress.

Towers said:
Are we saying a Class 700 has some sort of bolt mechanism fitted, in addition to the usual local isolation switch?

Yes, it's a physical lock. The local isolation is done in the cab via the HMI.

Interesting to hear that the 800s will override the physical lock. That sounds like a good system.

Towers · 30 Jul 2022

ComUtoR said:
The local carriage key lock on the 700 is a mechanical lock. It will physically lock the door which will prevent an egress.

Yes, it's a physical lock. The local isolation is done in the cab via the HMI.

Interesting to hear that the 800s will override the physical lock. That sounds like a good system.

That sounds like a rather backward system on the 700s to be honest! Physical, mechanical locks are Sprinter-spec!

AM9 · 30 Jul 2022

Class2ldn said:
On 700s you can isolate doors electrically via the HMI , (now the preferred way for fire regs so they can still be egressed) or mechanically at the door itself.
You can also lock out any doors on any coach you want but if it was just the rear coach on most drivers probably wouldn't take the chance and also locking out each door takes a few minutes on the HMI , you've then got to manually unlock them again after so its a bit of a pain and time consuming.

So does that mean that if doors are mechanically locked, an emergency egress isn't possible? If so, surely that would render the train not fit for passenger use on safety grounds?

skyhigh · 30 Jul 2022

ComUtoR said:
Interesting to hear that the 800s will override the physical lock. That sounds like a good system.

Same on 195s/331s. I was told it was a requirement on new stock but presumably 700s were ordered before that came in.

AM9 said:
So does that mean that if doors are mechanically locked, an emergency egress isn't possible? If so, surely that would render the train not fit for passenger use on safety grounds?

It depends which doors and the number of them that are locked out. There are regulations on what is allowed to run.

Class2ldn · 30 Jul 2022

AM9 said:
So does that mean that if doors are mechanically locked, an emergency egress isn't possible? If so, surely that would render the train not fit for passenger use on safety grounds?

No you can't egress it but it doesn't render the train unsafe, its 1 door out of 24 on each side (12 car), if they took them out of service for 1 door locked out they'd be no trains lol.
It used to be the case that the first door after the driver if that got locked the train would be out of use but that got changed a while back now, on the 700s if the door behind the driver has to be locked the door on the other side and the whole first class has to be locked out.

ComUtoR · 30 Jul 2022

I actually prefer it. The TOC can allow an electrical isolation (which sounds like GTR do) and that would resolve most issues.

The mechanical side resolves the more physical nature of the door issues that get encountered.

Doors are a continual nightmare so it's nice to have both options.

The 800/195/331 version does sound like an improvement and it's always good to see incremental improvements. I would still like to have both as an option. Weird how that isn't an option on the 800s

Class2ldn · 30 Jul 2022

Like I say they prefer it now as obviously the egress option is important so if they can knock out the door but still be able to get passengers out in an emergency then its a good thing.
Obviously some faults mean you'd have to lock the door locally with the carriage key but generally the 700 doors are pretty good.
Think I've only ever had to lock 2 or 3 out mechanically in about 5 years

Towers · 30 Jul 2022

AM9 said:
So does that mean that if doors are mechanically locked, an emergency egress isn't possible? If so, surely that would render the train not fit for passenger use on safety grounds?

On stock (including 700s it seems!) where isolating an exterior door means that it's physically locked shut and no egress is possible (MK3-based units, 15x stock, 16x stock, doubtless some other stuff too), then if the affected door is at an immediate end of the train that whole carriage has to come out of use. The same applies if both doors on one side of any carriage (or indeed all the doors) are isolated; again, it comes out of passenger use. The rest of the train can remain in use.

The Rulebook was updated a few years back to reflect that a lot of newer stock is now designed so that isolating a door doesn't prevent the egress from working, and as such on these trains the affected carriage can remain in use as there is still a means of escape.

AM9 · 30 Jul 2022

Class2ldn said:
No you can't egress it but it doesn't render the train unsafe, its 1 door out of 24 on each side (12 car), if they took them out of service for 1 door locked out they'd be no trains lol.
It used to be the case that the first door after the driver if that got locked the train would be out of use but that got changed a while back now, on the 700s if the door behind the driver has to be locked the door on the other side and the whole first class has to be locked out.

In the situation being discussed here, that only the rear car was platformed, if that was mechanically locked there would be no 'safe' egress in an emergency. I presume from your comments (in post #19) that as it required the driver to walk back 7 or 11 cars to physically lock them with a T key, I presume it would be for very specific reasons and would in the process, allow checking passengers and if necessary moving them forward.

ComUtoR · 30 Jul 2022

AM9 said:
In the situation being discussed here, that only the rear car was platformed, if that was mechanically locked there would be no 'safe' egress in an emergency. I presume from your comments (in post #19) that as it required the driver to walk back 7 or 11 cars to physically lock them with a T key, I presume it would be for very specific reasons and would in the process, allow checking passengers and if necessary moving them forward.

There would be "safe" egress. Just not directly on to the platform.

In the situation posted. There isn't an "emergency".

CFRAIL · 30 Jul 2022

We've established that SDO wouldn't work, but could the driver not have set up in the other cab and then that coach in the platform would've been the first coach and therefore SDO could've worked? Although presumably using the cab would've been quicker.

Towers · 30 Jul 2022

There

ComUtoR said:
There would be "safe" egress. Just not directly on to the platform.

In the situation posted. There isn't an "emergency".

There's no egress, safe or otherwise, if you're sat in a carriage with all the exterior doors locked shut!

This does pose another question though. How is an individual vehicle taken out of use on a 700, given the 'walk-through' nature of the wide gangways? Is it deemed to be the case that escape is suitably easy that passengers only need to be 'advised' via screens etc, or is there an actual means of barring access internally?

Class2ldn · 30 Jul 2022

It isn't, I believe that if 2 doors next to each other on the same side are locked then the train gets taken out of service .
Normally you'd lock a coach out and be done but on 700s its not possible so the whole train is taken out.
As I said before the first class can be locked out but that is it. There is fire doors but they wouldn't be used in that scenario

Surreytraveller · 30 Jul 2022

Towers said:
That sounds like a rather backward system on the 700s to be honest! Physical, mechanical locks are Sprinter-spec!

Nothing backwards about being able to override a computer

Emergency door release on class 700s

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