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AWC cast-offs!

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Fyldeboy

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Apologies if this is already covered. I know there are 1001 posts about who should get Avanti 22x fleet but now they are starting to trickle off-lease, decisions must be forming.

XC has always been the forerunner but would they be more reliable than HSTs in the short term for Scotrail? Could Chiltern use them to replace LHCS? I know there are platform length issues - but more reliable (and better integration) than 180s on EMR short term?
 
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JonathanH

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I know there are 1001 posts about who should get Avanti 22x fleet but now they are starting to trickle off-lease, decisions must be forming.
Without wanting to be accused of an immediate cynical response, the suggestion elsewhere is that a decision has been made that 221142 and 221143 will sit at Central Rivers out of use for up to two years.
 

JonathanH

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XC has always been the forerunner but would they be more reliable than HSTs in the short term for Scotrail? Could Chiltern use them to replace LHCS? I know there are platform length issues - but more reliable (and better integration) than 180s on EMR short term?
Short term use anywhere is going to cause issues with traincrew training and maintenance options. Posters have indicated that the DfT is not likely to be keen on the cost of training for short term use unless necessary.

They should go to XC (like, those two should go there now), but it seems this common sense may be too much to ask.
If their only use is to directly displace the HST fleet - eg 5 car for 7 car - people should be careful what they wish for.
 

Fyldeboy

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Short term use anywhere is going to cause issues with traincrew training and maintenance options.
I'll openly admit I have no experience in these things - but what about replacing EMR 180s? The similarities to 222s must help.
 

Bletchleyite

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If their only use is to directly displace the HST fleet - eg 5 car for 7 car - people should be careful what they wish for.

Two (4 car) Voyagers should displace one HST. The capacity is similar. The other two coaches are a bit of a capacity gain, allowing a 4 to go to a 5 or an 8 to a 9.
 

class397tpe

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Two (4 car) Voyagers should displace one HST. The capacity is similar. The other two coaches are a bit of a capacity gain, allowing a 4 to go to a 5 or an 8 to a 9.
Well a 4-car voyager has 200 seats - 26 first, 174 second class. An XC HST has 459 seats - 70 first, 389 standard. So two 4-cars would give a reduction in seating capacity sadly.
 

HSTEd

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I would argue it would be best to only lease the centre cars from these freed units, not much point driving around driving cars given how few seats they have in them, for similar fuel consumption and other costs.

The leasing company might be aggressive in pricing to prevent that outcome though.
 

rjames87

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There must be some cost / operational benefits to having the voyagers and losing the HSTs, given you wouldn’t need to train staff on HSTs any more, and while there would be a drop in capacity on that service, you’d benefit from overall flexibility. I presume the HSTs are rarely at capacity for the majority of their journey?
 

NoOnesFool

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There must be some cost / operational benefits to having the voyagers and losing the HSTs, given you wouldn’t need to train staff on HSTs any more, and while there would be a drop in capacity on that service, you’d benefit from overall flexibility. I presume the HSTs are rarely at capacity for the majority of their journey?
Voyagers are on a set lease. The HSTs are leased on a pay per use basis.

Cross Country would be the ideal TOC to take on Avanti's Voyagers. They could remove one Standard coach and run them as 4 cars.
 

Herefordian

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It would be the logical solution and course of action.

What's not to like about fleet commonality, reducing the need for an extra parts bin and the associated costs with an additional train type?

Despite my love for the HSTs, it seems like a win-win situation to me.

But, as Bletchleyite said previously, the common sense to make it happen is somewhat lacking.
 

HSTEd

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Would XC be better served by additional units or by adding one or more additional centre vehicles to additional units?

The latter requires far fewer vehicles per seat.
 

TheBigD

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How many HSTs are activity used on a daily basis?
Usually 2 southbound and 2 northbound requiring 3 sets, though one of the diagrams swaps over at Plymouth (1448 arrival goes to Laira and a fresh set from Laira does the 1525 departure).
 

JonathanH

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Usually 2 southbound and 2 northbound requiring 3 sets, though one of the diagrams swaps over at Plymouth (1448 arrival goes to Laira and a fresh set from Laira does the 1525 departure).
That swap wouldn't be necessary if the two 221s directly replaced the HSTs though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would XC be better served by additional units or by adding one or more additional centre vehicles to additional units?

The latter requires far fewer vehicles per seat.

Additional units for now, as if you're just adding vehicles there are only 6 available at the moment.
 

Energy

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Additional units for now, as if you're just adding vehicles there are only 6 available at the moment.
Having the whole unit forever is more useful, adding only the 3 middle cars would be a much smaller increase in capacity.
 

HSTEd

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Having the whole unit forever is more useful, adding only the 3 middle cars would be a much smaller increase in capacity.
You get 3/4 of the capacity at ~3/5th the operating costs, and no additional manning cost - and you need an additional staff member if you running a double unit.
 

RobShipway

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I can see the AWC class 221's going to XC, with the Class 220 units being used on services where class 170 units are used, as long as the route allows it. So where you currently have a Class 220 working with a class 221, you would have two class 221's working together.

I can also see a couple of the class 222 units moving to XC as well, with 222 001-222 002 replacing the HST trains at XC. The other Class 222 units, I can see replacing most of the HST sets with Scotrail. I can also see the 4 class 180 units, once EMR have finished using them moving to Scotrail as well.
 

Energy

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I can see the AWC class 221's going to XC, with the Class 220 units being used on services where class 170 units are used, as long as the route allows it. So where you currently have a Class 220 working with a class 221, you would have two class 221's working together.
The 220s have a lower seating capacity than the 170s. The 170s are much better suited to XC work than say EMR work where they are on stopping services.
You get 3/4 of the capacity at ~3/5th the operating costs, and no additional manning cost - and you need an additional staff member if you running a double unit.
I doubt it will be ~3/5th the cost, the end cars would be little use to the rosco without some cars in between so they'd be included for little extra.
I can also see a couple of the class 222 units moving to XC as well, with 222 001-222 002 replacing the HST trains at XC. The other Class 222 units, I can see replacing most of the HST sets with Scotrail. I can also see the 4 class 180 units, once
I cant really see any of this happening, the 222s have been talked about for XC before but I don't think there is the money for it. Adding the Avanti 221s and reseating all the voyagers with thinner backs to add more seats in would still add capacity.

I wonder how much of the disabled toilet is structural, I know it can't be completely removed but could some of it be changed to luggage racks and change it into a smaller toilet?

222s wouldn't suit scotrail, they are heavy, fuel thirsty, and don't meet the electrification/climate targets scotrail has. EMR is keeping the 180s for now (and for 4 units I doubt Scotland wants them).
...and I suspect exceed the length of the depot at Central Rivers.
Which would kill of extending existing units to more than 5 cars, depot modifications would be expensive...
 

JonathanH

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Adding the Avanti 221s and reseating all the voyagers with thinner backs to add more seats in would still add capacity.
Doesn't that cause an issue with the seat reservation displays which is also expensive to rectify?
 
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