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How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

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A0wen

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Peterborough isn't, or wasn't strategic? OK, the line served Peterboro EAst, but it was, even then, a serious town, and the line continued to Ely (for Norwich) and Cambridge (and even Ipswich, though I'm not sure what the service was like back then.

It served a much more far flung set of populations - which would be potentially useful today. But truth is, not that many people wanted to use the service back in those times.

Wasn't then - certainly for the likes of Wellingborough, Kettering or Northampton.

Places like Oundle and the villages in that part of East Northants might have had some attraction to Peterboro, but for Wellingborough / Kettering it would have been to Northampton.

People didn't travel as far in the 1960s and certainly not for leisure.
 
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Irascible

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Lostwithiel and many other stations in Cornwall and nationwide get comparatively microscopic passenger numbers but get frequent long-distance services, to London is this case or even Scotland. How do Ashford, Dover, Folkestone, Ramsgate, Margate, Canterbury, Maidstone and the Medway towns, which all get over 1 million passengers per year, and with Canterbury being a major city, NOT deserve trains to anywhere beyond London?
In Cornwall, every train is a local train. It just so happens most pf them turn into a slightly faster train the other side of ... Newton Abbott, I guess, where they turn into Javelin II and get on the high-speed waitaminute.

Newton Abbott is the other side of the region to Lostwithiel...
 

Basil Jet

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Certainly internally, but getting out of it is quite difficult. There are no cross-country services of any sort, the furthest place I can get from my house on a single train is central London. It can't even be excused by 'Deal is too small of a town for long distance services' because it is surrounded by towns which absolutely are. The key to better connectivity would have been to connect HS1 and HS2 and run services down to Ashford but because we can't have nice things it got cancelled.
HS2 will have IIRC 20 carriage trains... HS1 is a bit less than that!
 

zwk500

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HS2 will have IIRC 20 carriage trains... HS1 is a bit less than that!
Eurostars are 400m long, which is the longest formation HS2 will run. However HS2 will also run 200m train formations, to enable operation onto the classic line, which would fit quite easily around Kent.
The bigger problem would be that any Kent-HS2 train would be missing Central London, calling Startford Int and OOC, and that you'd be taking away London paths from HS2, which badly needs them to effectively relieve the southern WCML. OOC is going to be well used, to be sure, but plenty will be staying on until Euston as it will have better North/South links as well as being within walking distance of a good number of destinations.
 

ar10642

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As I say, it's not a massive flow. You can't run a train for every possible potential journey, it's just not feasible. Hence my suggestion of running Kent-Gatwick services: from Brighton, Haywards Heath or indeed either Coastway line, it would be 1 change to Tonbridge. For the few who are making that journey, it becomes much easier and much more reliable. You've got 2tph from either coastway plus the TL from Brighton to provide masses of connections, making the journey planning around 1tph Gatwick-Tonbridge much more straightforward and minimising the risk of a 20+ minute connection.

However, as I've said: neither Redhill nor Gatwick have the space to platform such as service without pretty much starting all over again. The business case for that doesn't add up.

Yes, if it continued to Gatwick (like the North Downs Line) it would be much more useful.
 

zwk500

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200m/400m. I think the most likely formation, unless they go with an articulated design, is 8 x 25m for each half or thereabouts. The ICE3 is a classic 200m high speed train and is roughly 8 x 25m, for example.
Agreed. Siemens Velaro family, which includes the ICE3 are normally 25m carriages (the Class 374 being an exception at 20m), as are Hitachi A-trains (the basis for the IET/Azuma/80x series, as well as the 395 Javelins). However, Alstom seem to favour 20m carriages in the TGV-derived families they've built recently. Not sure what length CAF favours, or if there are any other builders who'd be interested in the contract.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. Siemens Velaro family, which includes the ICE3 are normally 25m carriages (the Class 374 being an exception at 20m), as are Hitachi A-trains (the basis for the IET/Azuma/80x series, as well as the 395 Javelins). However, Alstom seem to favour 20m carriages in the TGV-derived families they've built recently. Not sure what length CAF favours, or if there are any other builders who'd be interested in the contract.

Class 374s are standard Velaros with the standard ~25m vehicle lengths. Not sure where you got that from!

Alstom's 20m TGV derived vehicles are articulated (articulated vehicles are shorter because the vehicle end is at the bogie centre). I seem to recall the HS2 spec doesn't allow for articulation but might be wrong.
 

zwk500

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Class 374s are standard Velaros with the standard ~25m vehicle lengths. Not sure where you got that from!
Somewhere in my head I got convinced the e320s were 18 carriages not 16. It's the old Class 373s that were 18, of course.
Alstom's 20m TGV derived vehicles are articulated. I seem to recall the HS2 spec doesn't allow for articulation but might be wrong.
I don't know the spec so couldn't comment. Alstom could modify the design if they wanted to (they'd need to rework some parts anyway for classic-compatible mode) but given how recent contracts have gone it would seem to be a straight fight between Siemens and Hitachi.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know the spec so couldn't comment. Alstom could modify the design if they wanted to (they'd need to rework some parts anyway for classic-compatible mode) but given how recent contracts have gone it would seem to be a straight fight between Siemens and Hitachi.

Pretty sure it's already gone to a consortium including Hitachi, hasn't it? I suspect it'll look very much like the EMR shortened 80x, though I half recall the spec mandates plug doors.
 

XAM2175

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I seem to recall the HS2 spec doesn't allow for articulation but might be wrong.
Correct.

Pretty sure it's already gone to a consortium including Hitachi, hasn't it?
Also correct, the winning bidder was the Hitachi-Bombardier joint venture which is obviously now Hitachi-Alstom. Bodyshells and initial fitout at Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, bogies by Alstom Crewe, completion and testing at Alstom Derby, and in-service maintenance at Washwood Heath.

Regardless though of the technical interoperability, the HS1-HS2 link-up was scuppered first and foremost by a hopelessly weak business case, ably assisted by the politics of how you'd actually route and build the link.
 

Bald Rick

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Regardless though of the technical interoperability, the HS1-HS2 link-up was scuppered first and foremost by a hopelessly weak business case, ably assisted by the politics of how you'd actually route and build the link.

and timetable it…
 

The exile

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It's probably the nostalgia effect, as direct trains from Manchester to Dover probably did previously justify themselves when the Ferry was the only way to France. However, as you say nowadays with HS1 taking cross-channel passenger traffic right into London, the justification for these long-distance services simply isn't there.
Not sure they really did -certainly they didn’t last long when they were (re-) introduced in the 1980s. The last survivor was presumably the Ramsgate on Saturdays - no doubt the use of interesting traction on that was in part an attempt to drum up custom!
 

Bletchleyite

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Not sure they really did -certainly they didn’t last long when they were (re-) introduced in the 1980s. The last survivor was presumably the Ramsgate on Saturdays - no doubt the use of interesting traction on that was in part an attempt to drum up custom!

Of course now if you want to go to Dover it's a short walk or Tube/bus ride from Euston to St Pancras.

I don't think any of the Dover ferries are currently taking foot passengers, though, are they?
 

RT4038

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Not quite - there were few if any through trains.

It was Welwyn GC to Dunstable via Luton and Dunstable to Leighton Buzzard the latter closing long before the former.
At the time of the lines shutting, who would have made a through journey anyway? The good burghers of Leighton Buzzard would have had no reason to travel to Welwyn G.C, or vice versa, apart from in trickle numbers.
 

A0wen

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At the time of the lines shutting, who would have made a through journey anyway? The good burghers of Leighton Buzzard would have had no reason to travel to Welwyn G.C, or vice versa, apart from in trickle numbers.

I completely agree. The point I was clarifying though is it had never been run as a through route from Luton - Leighton Buzzard.
 

181

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Of course now if you want to go to Dover it's a short walk or Tube/bus ride from Euston to St Pancras.

I don't think any of the Dover ferries are currently taking foot passengers, though, are they?
P&O now are again, although only on some sailings, and they don't seem to be making it easy:

https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-r...by-ferry.htm#London_to_Paris_via_Dover-Calais

https://www.poferries.com/en/routes...el-information/travelling-as-a-foot-passenger

Anyone prepared to make the transfers at Calais and Dover is unlikely to be put off by changing trains in London.
 

Ken H

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30907

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It's probably the nostalgia effect, as direct trains from Manchester to Dover probably did previously justify themselves when the Ferry was the only way to France. However, as you say nowadays with HS1 taking cross-channel passenger traffic right into London, the justification for these long-distance services simply isn't there.
They didn't. The only all-year round cross-country service from/to Kent historically was the Birkenhead-Margate/Hastings, which didn't serve the ports, or the car-sleepers of the 50s/60s which did.
 

RT4038

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I completely agree. The point I was clarifying though is it had never been run as a through route from Luton - Leighton Buzzard.
Quite. Why would anybody travel by the filthy steam train, twice through per day (and two others by changing in Dunstable and waiting up to 30 minutes) when one could travel every half hour from early morn 'til late at night in a splendid clean Lodekka of the United Counties Omnibus Company, long before the scourge of roundabouts, road humps, parked cars, one way systems, one man buses with automatic transmissions etc that mars any such journey today. The bus even went to the centre of Leighton Buzzard, unlike the train, and to L.B. Station, (in Linslade).

As for Hatfield/WGC to Luton - the demand can surely be measured by noticing that the Monday to Friday service was already peak hours only by the mid 50s, and that the through bus service offering via country lanes (by the 'Birch') had all but collapsed by 1956. When the line shut a replacement service (no. 366) was introduced by London Transport, but Monday to Friday off peak service didn't come until the later 70s.

The Dunstable-Leighton Buzzard line was particularly used for mineral conveyance to the Long Itchington and Rugby Cement works, and doubtless passenger service was an inconvenience getting in the way of crawling unbraked goods trains. This was done so cheaply and reliably that the cement company built a pipeline, at no small expense, to transport this as slurry instead.
 
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A0wen

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As for Hatfield/WGC to Luton - the demand can surely be measured by noticing that the Monday to Friday service was already peak hours only by the mid 50s, and that the through bus service offering via country lanes (by the 'Birch') had all but collapsed by 1956. When the line shut a replacement service (no. 366) was introduced by London Transport, but Monday to Friday off peak service didn't come until the later 70s.

For many years the Birch services only ran to / from Welwyn Village not Welwyn GC as London Transport kept blocking Birch's attempts to serve both Welwyn GC and Stevenage. To the end Birch's London - Rushden service ran down the old A1 from Ayot and only touched Welwyn GC at Valley Road - they couldn't go to the town centre, same with Hatfield.

Another way the LPTB / LT "special area" wrecked transport outside London itself.
 

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I’ve just returned from the Ascot - Aldershot branch and am amazed so many branches in the SWR survived Beeching. Did Surrey get lucky or is it just that counties like Sussex and Essex are much more rural to have had more cuts?

To answer the OP, the North operates like a series of triangles linking towns whereas the South is like a star where London is the centre, much to my dislike. This is why many of us Southerners can’t wait to the EWR to open.

The North has the connections but the frequency and formation of trains can be a disappointment at times*

*a lot of times.
 

A S Leib

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Did Surrey get lucky or is it just that counties like Sussex and Essex are much more rural to have had more cuts?
Surrey has 84 stations; Hertfordshire has 50 (47 if you don't count Moor Park, Croxley and Watford Met) with a near-identical population and area. Around fifteen of Hertfordshire's serve the six towns with over 50,000 people (Welwyn and Cheshunt were over 45,000 in 2011); Woking, Guildford, Walton, Ewell and Esher have around ten. So Hertfordshire outside the largest towns has 35 stations for 650k people; rural Surrey has 74 for 800k.

(These calculations should come with the caveats that a) some smaller towns might have multiple stations, b) more stations doesn't necessarily mean more lines, or more useful services, and c) it might be that what's considered as London's urban area includes more stations in Surrey than in Hertfordshire.)

I'd say that part of the difference might be that Surrey's population's a bit more spread out than a lot of other southeastern counties - no Medway, Reading, Southend, Brighton, Luton, Southampton-Portsmouth - and maybe partly that the North Downs line was better-planned or just luckier in terms of which towns (/ airports) grew than other lines.

In terms of Essex being rural, I think Essex fared quite a bit worse than Kent - no way of getting between two of the five busiest stations in the East of England within the same county by rail without changing twice or going via London - whilst as has been mentioned travel within Kent generally seems to be quite good, or at least good enough that it isn't generally necessary to leave the county to go between towns within Kent.
 

SouthEastBuses

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I live down on the south coast, near Bournemouth/Poole. For London, Manchester and anywhere on the SWML we're very well connected. And we're one change from Portsmouth, Brighton and Salisbury. But if I want to go west it's not as easy; the journey times are longer, the route is often going in the wrong direction before it joins up with a route going in the correct direction (Bournemouth -> Basingstoke/Reading -> Exeter for example). Taking Exeter as an example, once changes and travel time to get to the station are thrown in, it can take nearly 4 hours to get there. It's a 2 hour drive if the traffic's favourable.
Not desirable I know, but you can also get the train to Weymouth, then X51/X53 bus to Axminster, then train to Exeter.
 

Irascible

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Not desirable I know, but you can also get the train to Weymouth, then X51/X53 bus to Axminster, then train to Exeter.
You could probably beat that by hiring a yacht to Exmouth... that is most definitely not the direct link the OP was after that's for sure :) I can see Portland from where I'm sitting now, & the convolutions I have to get there without driving are quite something. But, people here look at Exeter and people around Bridport & further don't, so it's not actually surprising.
 
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